Achievement Addiction and the Quest for Wellness with Najmah Ahmad

Achievement Addiction & The Quest for Wellness with Najmah Ahmad - The Exit Interview: A Podcast for Black Educators

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: [00:00:00] I'm walking down the street and I'm, I'm not a very emotional person at that time.

Outwardly, literally tears just start streaming down my face and I can't stop it. And I'm like, Oh my God, what is happening? It's like a Tuesday afternoon. And I'm crying, walking to the train to go home and this, this voice in my head was like, I don't want to be here anymore. And it scared me. And I talk about this in the episode.

I'm like, cause immediately I didn't know if I meant, I didn't want to be at that job anymore, or I didn't want to be here anymore.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: And I was like, Oh, I got to get some help. I, I can't carry this anymore. So that was the moment when I decided to go to therapy and to find a therapist. All right, folks, welcome back to The Exit Interview, a [00:01:00] podcast for Black educators. It's me, Dr. Asia, and as always, another fantastic guest. Uh, today I have Najma Ahmed. here to share her story. We know each other from Catalyst, and shout out to Camila, who's like connecting folks, consultants, Black women, Brown women, women of color together in a beautiful space.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Um, and so this is another connection. Welcome to the show.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Thank you so much for having me. And yeah, shout out to Camila, the connector extraordinaire. I'm so happy to be here with you.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah. And, so we've met again out in the, the, the sphere, but of course you were an educator and you're on the East Coast. Is that correct? Did I

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yep. I'm in, I'm in DC. Yep.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: So, um, You would be like the 45th person from the east coast. Yeah, and that's good So I'm glad we're spreading out more folks from all over our listening to the podcast are sharing their [00:02:00] stories on the podcast So yeah, let's go ahead and get started first things first.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yes.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: of people talk about going into education as Young folks some people joined TFA some people decide to second career. What made you decide education was for you? What was your story?

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. So education was actually not my initial choice. When I went to college, I was a nursing major. Um, I was a nursing major for two years. Actually, I knew that I wanted to help people in some way, um, or another. And then I got to my second year in college and that was the clinicals. And I was like, I actually don't want to be in a hospital all day.

I was like, Oh, this is

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: yeah, yeah,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: this moment. But then it was like, Oh my God, like I'm two years in, I went to Xavier university in Ohio. It is not cheap. There's a private Jesuit school. And so [00:03:00] it was just like, well, what do I do now? And so I kind of, um, started to look around at the people in my life, right?

When we grow up, it's like a handful of careers that we are told that are accessible to us. And so at some point when I was a kid, I wanted to be a pediatrician, uh, wants to be an astronaut at some point, wanted to be a journalist. I'll come back to journalists later. Cause it has come back. come back around.

But, um, you know, I had an internship at like Procter and Gamble learning about chemical engineering. It was like the things that were in front of me that people told me. And then nursing, like I said, I always had this inclination to want to care for people, uh, to support people. But, uh, I didn't want to be steeped in that.

And so when I was looking around, my mentor at the time, when I was at Xavier, um, was the Associate Director of the Office of Multicultural Affairs. And I just started to think about the impact that she had on me, uh, being at a predominantly white institution, being the first in my [00:04:00] generation, um, in my family to, you know, Go to college.

Um, it was really supportive to have someone like her guiding me, uh, while I was in my educational experience. And so I was kind of like, Oh, I can do that. I want to, I want to do that. And so I started to learn more about student affairs, um, college student affairs, and that that was actually a career I did not know that that was a career, uh, to be able to advise or work in multicultural affairs.

And so I ended up switching my major to sociology, uh, because I also love to study systems. I also love to study people, um, the functions, why education systems are the way that they are. I always thought about the fact that, you know, I had access to great education because I lived in predominantly white neighborhoods, but my cousins a mile down the road didn't have access to the same things.

I was thinking about that as like a teenager, you know? [00:05:00] And so, Um, I wanted to study that, and so I switched my major to sociology, um, and then my minor to gender and diversity studies, and set forth on, um, understanding what it would take to embark upon a career in higher education. I actually did not, I was not a teacher, um, but I worked in higher education, um, in administration.

We'll talk more about my, my path, but I worked in school districts and in the schools as well. But that was my initial foray, kind of wanting to know how can I still support people in, in their journeys, uh, not in a hospital, but in a different way. But that higher education student affairs was kind of my entry point, um, into education.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: yeah, I appreciate that. And you know, on our show, we talk about educators, we talk about folks who impact youth in any type of capacity, right? Para professionals, school nurses, school psychs, so, um, appreciate [00:06:00] that, that lens that you're, you're offering to our get, or to our community. You finished school. Where are we working? What are we doing? What

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. Yeah. So when I first graduated from college, um, it was in like, uh, 2007. So 2007 going 2008, as we know, that was a huge economic crisis in our country. And so I graduated and I didn't have a job yet. Luckily, I had a grandfather who was like, don't come back home and he got me an apartment and he was like, I'm gonna give you some months to figure it out.

And so I stayed in Cincinnati where I went to school.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Wait, shout

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: so, you know,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Let's just hold on.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: that man, you know,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: don't come. So what was home for you?

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Like 45 minutes away in Middletown, Ohio. That's where I went to high school. And so he was like, don't, and he was really the only [00:07:00] reason I always love to talk about the ancestors and everything I'm doing, but he was the one who made sure that I even got to go to college.

Like so many of us. Uh, most of my family couldn't co sign for loans. Nobody was paying for it. Nobody had the credit, uh, but he was the only one. And so, you know, shout out to the loans, I guess, but he was the one who helped me and to put me through. And so, yeah, he was like, don't, don't come back here. Um, and so he got me an apartment, uh, in Cincinnati.

And so I, initially I started working for a nonprofit. And so I was working with at risk youth. Um, in the community and going into the high schools and doing workshops for them around leadership around actually not think about it around trauma, um, around, you know, really understanding, uh, how their trauma impacts them and their education.

It was with the, oh, my God, the alcoholism council of Cincinnati, [00:08:00] actually. And so I would do workshops in the schools with at risk, quote, unquote, at risk youth, um, at that time. And so from there, then I went to work with the Cincinnati Youth Collaborative. And so I was working again in high schools.

Essentially, I was a counselor in the high school or a supplemental counselor. And I will work with the seniors to help them, um, on high school planning and to understand, you know, how do you fill out the FAFSA? All the things I struggled with,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Nobody helped me with. I was in there like nobody, nobody gonna help me.

Okay, let me figure this out. And so.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: grandpa wasn't, that fast food wasn't his

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: No, he was like, take my

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: I

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: social.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yes.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: date of birth,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Exactly.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Right.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: well.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: and I was a youth groups too, though, you know, I was an upper bound and things like that. And so I'm, I'm grateful for that support. So essentially I was paying that forward.

I was being that person. that I [00:09:00] had and that I wish that I had. Um, it was really interesting though, because at that time, you know, I was like 22. Uh, a lot of the kids looked older than me. And so I thought that I was like a high school student. Right. And so, um, it was kind of like that, how do I assert myself as an adult, but it was great because I could relate to them as well.

Not being so. So, um, you know, far removed from them. But I was, I was in the high schools. I was working with high school seniors who were like 18, 19 years old. And I'm like 22, um, helping them to understand their journey. And so. I did that for a while, but, um, you know, I hadn't, I didn't have my masters yet.

I kind of, I was coming out of undergrad and I was just like, I'm tired, but I knew, you know, for, to work in higher ed, which was my ultimate goal in college student affairs, you need to have a master's.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: but I wasn't ready yet, you know, personal things that I had going on in my life [00:10:00] and wanting to just get out of Ohio.

leave. And so I actually ended up moving to Miami. Um, and I worked at Miami Dade College and that was my first role in student affairs. And I worked, um, in admissions actually. And so at a community college, but it's the largest community college in the nation. Um, I think they have like six or seven campuses or something.

And

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: of students down in South Florida. So it was a community college, but it had the feel of a much larger kind of institution. And so I was working in student life and admissions down there, kind of getting a feel for, you know, what, what How to navigate a campus. What does that look like?

I was working with a lot of first generation college students, a lot of migrant, um, students, immigrant students as well. And so those kind of, um, uh, complexities on how to [00:11:00] support those young people who are looking to fund their education. Right. Again, going back to my own struggles, my, my career often has been, how can I be what I needed for other people?

Um, and so,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: we hear that a lot on the podcast, right? It's, it's that reciprocity piece. It's that, like, who, who could have really supported me? Or, you know, that, exactly, that beacon, that person. If they had a person, then they want to be like that person. If they had no one, then they want to be that for someone

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: yes. Absolutely. Um, so yeah, and then, uh, state of Miami. And I was like, I do not like it here. I did not want to be in Miami. I always want it to be, um, I'm a huge history nerd, uh, politics in the back of my head. I was going to, uh, run for president one day, be a university president, all these things. And so DC had always been calling to me and it was around the time where Obama had been elected.

And [00:12:00] so it was like, I want to be there. I want to meet Michelle. I want to go, I got to go. And so, uh, it ended up moving to DC and I was working at Trinity Washington University here in DC. And it is, um, a private Catholic university. It is, um, it started out as an all girls school for the most part. It still is.

Um, Nancy Pelosi went there, uh, a few other kind of prominent, um, Political figures, but at some point it changed to be predominantly black. And so a lot of the girls at Trinity were from DC first generation college students. A lot of them, um, came from. Tough circumstances. Um, a lot of them had different mental health issues going on, uh, quite a few of them, um, you know, didn't have stable home lives.

And so Trinity, if you look it up kind of, [00:13:00] um, prides itself as being a place for, of opportunity for young women who may not, uh, be able to go to other universities, but still provide them with a great education. And so, um. That was an experience. I worked in residence life. Uh, if any of you that are listening, working higher edge, you know, that res life is like, you are a therapist, you are a programmer, you are a auntie, a mentor, you are, uh, you know, I was going to the hospital with students who were suicidal.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: I was, you know, helping them to navigate all kinds of circumstances. And so it was like. I was on call, you know, 24 hours a day, some weeks at a time. Um, and so just always on, but really being steeped within the university and the culture, um, and the student life. And so I actually worked, uh, I worked [00:14:00] there and I started my master's program.

And so my master's program, I went to, uh, it was a distance learning program, so I would go for a residency for a month and then come back up. It was down in Florida at Nova Southeastern. They had a really great higher ed program. And so while I was in that program, I had a practicum. And so I created an alternative spring break program for the university.

Just things that I felt that. These girls really deserved, but because of where they came from, I think that people thought that they were not capable

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Sure.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: And that really was tough for me when I was working in that space. Like, why are we not challenging these young women? Why are we not giving the, them these opportunities because they've never had them before?

You just assume that they can't, um, Learn and be immersed in them. So I created an alternative spring break program. We actually went to Selma, Alabama, [00:15:00] um, and I created like a leadership curriculum for them to understand. Um, it's so funny talking about this and I'm like, man, my work has really been the same.

But understand the ancestors and what they did in order for, for them to be where they are and what a servant leadership look like, what does that really mean to be a servant leader? What does it, what, what are you here for? Right. Beyond getting your degree, who do you want to be? What do you want to contribute back to society and to humanity?

And so I'm so proud of that program. It's actually still going today. Um, and so I started that. It was like 15 years ago now. Um,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: to pause you for a

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: yeah. Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: I'm thinking like how awesome it is that the master's program that you're in had this opportunity for you to freedom dream in this way. Right. And then for the university that you worked on in to say like, sure,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Um, [00:16:00] I was just imagining, I can't imagine how, you know, The women, young women felt like hearing about this and being able to do this and how you were, I'm sure, both nervous and excited to be able to give this opportunity to them. and I cut you off right as you said this, that that was 15 years ago and it's still there.

And I, has to be something that makes you so proud to know that it's going on without you because we know that so many programs or initiatives that folks start once they leave it dissolves either the next year or the year after. So like hats off for you for creating that. Yeah. And, and, and the university for still continuing to fund that and seeing the value of the work that you, you've done.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Thank you for that. Thank you. Yeah. And looking back, you know, so this was 15 years ago. I was 24 years old. I was just like, I want to do this. Right. And so it is like getting permission for me to fly. I think we took like. It might've been like [00:17:00] 10, uh, 10 young women down to Alabama, uh, to stay overnight. We were down there building houses, but then we went, um, and we participated in, they do every year, the march across the Edmund Pettus bridge.

And we talked to, um, Reverend, um, Shuttlesworth down there who marched with Dr. King and just, It was one of my favorite experiences of my career. Uh, I think about it often. I have young women who went on that trip, who I'm still connected with, who reach out to me from time to time. And they talk about it like, Oh my God, that was like so transformative for them.

And it was like, you said, I am appreciative to the university to allow me to do it. I actually partnered with campus ministry. Um, and so. student life, the dean for student life. Uh, that's who's still there. Dean Michi, which is probably why the program is still going. Uh, but she was definitely an advocate for that program that these [00:18:00] young women deserved an experience like.

Like they had never even heard of alternative spring break, um, before. But coming from Xavier, where I went private Jesuit school, their motto was being men and women for others. And that's why I went to Xavier because service has always been a part of my life. And giving back and understanding that we are a part of, uh, a global and a greater community beyond ourselves.

Um. So yeah, that experience, but then on the flip side, the frustration started to build because it was, I saw the lack of resources that those young ladies got. Um, and I, and I saw the lack of resources that I had to fight tooth and nail for. Um, as much as I was happy that they did this alternative spring break, you know, it was a battle.

There was some things, you know, the dorms having mice and, [00:19:00] you know, just, just, Just crazy, uh, substandard conditions in a lot of ways or talking to seniors, um, who were needing help with the senior project and they were reading a book, uh, the giver this, I don't know if you've ever read the giver before.

Yeah, it's one of my favorite books from when I was like, in the third grade, I think.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: it's

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: so.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: we were teaching it in 6th grade when I

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. And so one of my, I still love, I love it. I love the book. I love what it stood for. But they were reading it as seniors in college and I was like,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: to it, like to understanding it.

And so it just started to make me think about how are we preparing young people before they get to college. Um, I understood, you know, how much I was prepared, but how much I still didn't know. And so it made me want to experience something different. A different kind of university had worked at a [00:20:00] community college and I worked at Trinity, which was a small, um, private school.

And so, uh, in every role that I had taken I was usually the first person in that position. They had usually just created that role. And I was like, okay, I'll go do that. And actually, I love it. It actually speaks to my entrepreneurial spirit spirit. Now that I think about it, too, like I love to start new things and not be burdened by, uh, you know, like.

What has been like, well, we've always done it this way. I've been in a new role. So nobody could tell me how it's always been because nobody has ever done it before. Um, so I always loved that. And so actually next went to go work for New York university and they were building a site here in DC. part of their global campus.

So they had like, I don't know, 12 campuses or something around the world. And so the NYU students would come down to DC and they would be, you know, interning at the Supreme court, at the Capitol, like at these really [00:21:00] prestigious institutions. Um, and so I worked in student life there, uh, literally was putting together the policies and procedures as the walls were being built.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Mm.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: that we were staying here. Um, and so that was an interesting experience. It really did make me see the dichotomy between what we say is possible for young people. Um, that was predominantly affluent. Students who were coming down, um, who were, like I said, interning on the hill and things like that, but they still were struggling mentally.

A lot of mental health crises and issues and It started to weigh on me to the point. Um, I was, and this is trigger warning for anyone who's listening to this, but I, you know, used to have to do if we, if a student was suspected to be experiencing mental health crisis, I would have to go check on them and like check their [00:22:00] rooms and stuff.

And you never know what is going to happen when you knock on that door, when you open that door. And this was around. The time of Sandy hook, um, that had happened, I had a young man who was from that town. Um, and it was just overwhelming for him. And so

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Mm

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: ended up having to escort him, um, to the hospital and help him to get some services and things like that.

And I, I was there, I remember until the next morning at like eight o'clock in the morning, come back to campus and had to do a debrief with the team. Um, he's okay, you know, but. physically, but I'm talking to the team and they're like crying and I'm just sitting there and I'm like, why are y'all crying?

And then inside I was like, Oh, this was a traumatic experience like this. And I am numb. This isn't okay. I can't do this

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: anymore. Like I've become too numb

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: This is not okay for me. [00:23:00] And so that was when I actually, I think decided that I wanted to get out of higher ed. Um, yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Can I say something? So this

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yes, please.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: um, because I think that I, I, I'm curious as the folks are listening to this episode, how many people in the K 12 space imagine higher education to be different. To be more glamorous, more glorious, more right.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: vice

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: and I've worked in both spaces, but yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: did. Right. And so people in higher ed saying, well, you all teach third grade.

And so, and, and is greener kind of

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: yes. Mm-hmm

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Um, and I love that you had to check in and say like, okay, this is. becoming a shell of my former self. I remember, um, when I was in my doctoral program, there was, uh, a woman named Laura in there who was in charge of Red's life for [00:24:00] CU Boulder. Or she

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Okay.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: I don't know if she was in charge, but she was in the department and she was on call every once in a while during

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Mm-hmm

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: she had a situation where someone had committed suicide. And she was called from work or from class to the, the, the situation.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. Mm-hmm

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: you know, when we, you know, weeks later when we started getting in class, we kind of discussed the emotion of it. Right. And, and it never occurred to me. I struggled in school with lots of things, Not mental health in that way, you know,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: it was like sure it was the sun wasn't out in michigan It was cloudy, but these

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Mm-hmm

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: felt very temporary and so just I to say hats off to you res life folks who do and did that work because You are these aren't just adults.

These are people still people's children

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: you know, these are still family members and community members and you are [00:25:00] there and have to be there to kind of You To hold space,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Mhm.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: And they're navigating these really hard parts of their lives. So I just want to say like hats off to you and Res Life folks for that.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Thank you. Yes. Much love to any residence life student life folks who are listening, especially right now, especially right now. I couldn't imagine. It's uh, we talk about young people not being okay and the older people aren't okay either. And so being in that sort of Is, uh, a dedication of love. Um, and so yes, sending all of the energy to anyone working in education, period right now, but especially those working in those spaces.

Um, but it caused me to want to take a step back. And think about how are we even preparing people, young people before they get here. Because on both ends of the spectrum, on either ends of the spectrum, I was [00:26:00] experiencing young people who were woefully unprepared mentally, physically, emotionally to go from being at home or whatever situation they were in before they came to college to now being like, okay, well, you're an adult now figure it out.

And it's like, wait, Like we, we were missing something, right? We're missing something even from the most affluent to, uh, young women who were in foster care who are wards of the state, emotionally, they were not okay. They were not ready. The experience experientially, they were not ready. They had not experienced what we were calling them to now be.

And so I wanted to take a step back, um, and I actually left higher ed. Put my phone on silent. I have not taken my phone off silent since then because I was just like, Oh my God, I don't have to be on call anymore. It does something to your nervous system, uh, to never be able to rest. Right. [00:27:00] Um, and, and that's something else that I think about in my career.

And I'll talk more about the healing. You know, this was all playing a toll on me as well as someone who at that time. Was a perfectionist and wanted to save the world. I'm just like chasing this thread of, okay, I've worked with this group. I did the nonprofit and then I went to higher ed, uh, with the first generation college students and I couldn't do enough there.

So then I went to NYU to try to see if I could work with this group, but that wasn't working. So, okay, now let's go to nonprofit. And so I worked with, um. An organization here in DC and they have a branch in Chicago and Baltimore, um, called Urban Alliance. And they worked with young people who were, um, preparing to transition from high school and to go on to their next steps, but they work with them on the preparation piece.

And so I was actually the director of [00:28:00] curriculum outreach. And so, um, I would go into the schools, into the high schools and I Um, help them to develop a curriculum basically to prepare young people for the future. What to expect, um, uh, from job searching to how do you show up in these spaces? What does professionalism look like?

How do you carry yourself? How do you navigate these worlds? And so, um, like I said, I wasn't a teacher, but I was in the schools often delivering this curriculum.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: that that was

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: that's all what you're talking about. Um, and obviously you have more to your story, but it's very full circle, right? It's like very much kids, older youth, college students preparing them again, standing in that gap holding space.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. The transition, the transition. I feel like,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yes.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: know, my whole career, even today is how do I support people in the [00:29:00] transition when you are trying to figure out who am I? Why am I here? What am I doing? What is the purpose of this all? Uh, when I look back recently on my career and I'll talk more about what I'm doing now, that is still at the heart of it.

I've been doing this for almost 20 years, really helping people at that transitional space of becoming. You know, uh, becoming of who they really want to be. Um, and so I did that for a few years and every role I've been in, I've been promoted every year, right? Because I'm like, I'm going to be the best. I want to figure this out.

Like this achievement addiction that I had. It was like, I gotta, I gotta keep going. I gotta figure this out. I gotta fix education. Right. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Mm hmm.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: I just wanted to make sure that folks heard that because

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: [00:30:00] Yeah,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: achievement addiction. I love that you said that. I just wanted to pause you go ahead. Yeah,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: to do in this conversation. So you all can see what I was doing, but I want you to know how I was feeling as well and why I had to get out. We'll talk more about that, but it was, you know, especially as a black woman, I was always told that we had to work twice as hard to get half as much.

And so understanding now what that actually did to me and my nervous system was that I was going to have to be a super woman so that I could get recognized so that I could get, you know, all these accolades, but I also wasn't going to be compensated fairly.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Oh, of course not.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: But I was told that that was normal. So I'm working at a non profit.

I'm a director. Right. I have a master's degree at that point. [00:31:00] I'm living in Washington, D. C. I'm traveling between all of these regions. I'm writing curriculum. Um, this program, multimillion dollar, you know, nonprofit and program. And I was making like 48, 000. In Washington, D. C. Right. Trying to afford an apartment.

And so I'm like, I'm stressed out there because I'm, I'm hungry, you know,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: literally.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: hungry and I'm tired. And you know, and so all of these, but I'm still trying to support these young people. And so, um, then Baltimore. So it was one of our sites. And so I would go to the schools of Baltimore and, um, And so this was around the time, the Baltimore uprisings.

I don't know if you remember with, um, after Freddie Gray. And so me being me, I've always been a baby radical. Um, I'm like to the organization. I'm like, we need to say something. Uh, some of our schools that we will work with. with, uh, Douglas [00:32:00] high school was a school that was on the news where the police were and they was like, uh, smoke canisters and tear gas and all this stuff that we're sitting there watching.

Like, I know these young people I'm in DC, but I know these young people, but the organization didn't want to speak out. Um, they thought that it wasn't in their best interest and that really did something to me. I was really disappointing to me to be in a space where an organization purports to be for students, but does not feel comfortable in speaking for students.

And so I then decided that I was going to create my own curriculum and in my own free time, uh, partner with another organization. And I went up to Baltimore. And I created a curriculum for the young people on how to change channel alchemize. I know the word alchemize now, but alchemize their pain and their frustration is a power and into leadership.

Like, how do [00:33:00] you take everything that you're feeling and move this past being this moment?

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: feel it though. And understand what you're feeling and now take it into leadership and into power. And so, um, I did a workshop with them and that was another highlight of my career. Those young people were phenomenal.

Um, and just the righteous anger that they had and acknowledging that with them. Um, but that was another pivotal moment in my career where I was disappointed. But I also started to see the system for what it was and that the system was more concerned, um, with peace instead of justice. Right.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: and, and, and so, yeah, that was another benchmark for me.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: So this is interesting because, you know, we talk about on the show that folks who are are kind of disenfranchised with traditional [00:34:00] education spaces should consider non profit work if they're not fully prepared to be an entrepreneur or they still want to be close to youth. And this, I'm glad you're talking about this because this is something that happens as well, right?

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Mm hmm.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: we look at the website of the non profit, we, get so inspired by, um, the executive director or whoever we're speaking with in the hiring phases of it. Um, then we get there, right? And it's not quite exactly as, um, liberatory as we thought it would be.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: there's so many folks who come onto the podcast who had a stint in non profit, myself included, where it's like, for me, leaving K 12 and saying, I can't be in education in that way anymore. But let me try a non profit word and just totally being disenfranchised from it. Because you said that this is going to be a place of liberation for youth and

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: who work there. Because[00:35:00]

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Mm hmm.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: are coming from other places where our ideas were silenced. Our, our mental health is, is not well. And, Some of us should have took a pause and done some

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. Yeah,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: right?

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: then we get into this same kind of cycle, right? Which is why I think so many people are like over nonprofits. And that's too bad because there are some that are doing really great work, but there's so many that aren't aren't, aren't, aren't.

Or aren't fully showing up in the way that they could that it makes people bitter towards the non profit work

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. Absolutely. And then because I really want the listeners to think about this systemically. So when we think about who funds nonprofits, uh, we think about philanthropy. We think about the problems of philanthropy that they want control over community. They don't want to necessarily solve the problems, but we want to maintain [00:36:00] the status quo oftentimes.

And so that doesn't look like liberation. all the time.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: then with

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: doesn't

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: of the times it does not, right? Like looking at the kafir behind you, it does not look like that. It is just here. We, we just going to keep people contained and, you know, but still offer some good, right? We did some great work and that was so frustrating because you can see it.

You're like, but if we just tell the truth, we can actually do some great work here.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: yeah,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: of the truth. And then we think about too, when you talk about the mental health aspect. Oftentimes, and I'm not just talking about the nonprofits I've worked at, but I see it all the time. Instead of paying people what they're worth, you give them a happy hour, right?

Staff happy everybody drink. What are we doing here? Right? It's like, we used to have so many staff happy hours, so many staff happy hours. And it's like open bar, open bar, [00:37:00] drink, drink, drink. So you're not feeling it. You're, you're, you're numb.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Or the swag,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: gift card that was,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: from things for the, for the organization. Yeah. You make some great points.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: yeah, yeah, yeah. So didn't did that. Um, and then I was like, okay, this isn't enough, right? Uh, and I wanted to impact more young people because that was cool that we had this program. But I'm like, I want to get at the system of it all. So that's when I went to go work for DC public schools. Um, I worked in central office.

I was on the college and career readiness team. So DC is interesting because it's not a state, but it operates like a state. So

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Mm-hmm

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: it's the, the LEA, the, uh, uh, uh, local education agency kind of operated like a state education agency as well. Like we had, I see the office of the state superintendent, but [00:38:00] we kind of were very much autonomous, um, in that way.

And so again, came into a position that was brand new. On the team, because there had been so much focus on, um, college that every student's going to go to college. But if you look at the data, realistically only about 35 percent of the young people were going to college. So it's like, what are we telling the other 65%?

Good luck. Like you and y'all. So, um, I was kind of brought in to. And to figure out, okay, how do we actually prepare all young people for the future? But I, I was basically an alien. Like I came in and I was like, you know, one of the things I used to say is that every career is the goal for everyone.

Because I was being spoken about at that time was college. And then those who are not capable of college. Then that's the other side. And it's like, hold on. No, no, no [00:39:00] career preparation. Life preparation is for every young person. The goal is not to go to college and stop like there's something that comes after that.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Mm-hmm

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: need to be preparing all young people. And then also. So understanding that if you expose young people to, um, careers and life, they'll make better decisions if they are going to college. So they're not going to major in nursing for two years, um, and then get into the hospital and be like, Oh wait, I don't like this.

I could have done that in high school. Right? Like I could have,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: exactly.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: and so. Um, I, I, my work was centered around that. How do we prepare all young people for the future, all menu of options and let them decide, but beyond just career. Cause I never wanted to just create another just workers. Right. Um, but again, at the transition, who do you want to be?

What, what, what. Do you want to contribute back to society? What do you want to experience? What do you want your life to feel like, to look like, to, to be? [00:40:00] Um, and so worked with the, the city. I created, um, a citywide internship program. I created a curriculum called tenacity. If you're listening and you need, um, a life skills, career readiness curriculum is open source.

It also still exists. So tenacity curriculum, uh, DCPS, you can Google it. It'll come up. It's free. I think it's like 150 pages. So always recommending that to folks, but, um, created a paid internship program. When I came on board to DCPS, I think it was like, I call it, they were doing random acts of career readiness.

Um, but I helped them to actually put some strategy and structure around it. Um, so the, by the time I left, There were over a thousand young people in paid internships with the city. We had over, you know, 250 employer partners. Uh, we built out employer industry advisory boards who are also contributing back to the curriculum.

[00:41:00] Um, I love that work. I love that work, but it. Left me, um, it was hard. I really had to recover from that position. There was a lot of politics. It was a lot of seeing behind the scenes, working at the district level. Um, how DC operates, the mayor is very much involved with that. the school. So a lot of it was the appearance of achievement and not actually celebrating the actual achievement.

Um, so there were points when they were saying, you know, 100 percent of young people graduated from X, Y and Z school. And I saw it on the news and I'm like, no, they did it. I was just in there talking to five of them who didn't graduate. So, and then that blew up. Uh, eventually, cause the reporter started digging and it was so frustrating to me because again, if we would have just told the, if not we, but if they would have just told the truth, there was so much to [00:42:00] celebrate

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Sure.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: far we came, but it was just that insistence, insistence of the appearance.

Of doing the work

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: that I'm just doing the work, right? Um, and that in the, in it, in navigating, you know, quote unquote microaggressions, which we know to be racism. I was that person who wanted to push, but people wanting to track certain students in a certain pathways or say what certain students from certain schools and certain neighborhoods were capable of and what others weren't and constantly having to fight.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Sure.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: narratives and then leaving meetings and people, you know, I'm so glad you said that. I'm so glad you like, yo, you could have backed me up.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: In the meeting in real time, sweetie. Okay. Yes.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: just out here on this live, but everyone always coming to me.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: that, that, that piece of speaking up being the [00:43:00] only person. And then of course all of the, the heat comes to backs towards

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: happens so much. And we hear that ton on the podcast. Um,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: it, it was overwhelming. It was overwhelming, you know, working in a space where, you know, some leadership had been sued multiple times for how they treated staff of color and everybody knows it, but it's just allowed to persist over and over and over again. Um, and so eventually I left there, um, again, wanting to keep achieving, still not healing, still not pausing.

Okay. So just kind of shoving it all down because I was in pursuit of something. I was in pursuit of me fixing the education system. So then I can say, I did it, I achieved this thing. Right. And so I went to the national level and so I was working for an organization, the council of chief state school officers.

I'm just putting everybody's name out right now. I don't even care. It is what it is, [00:44:00] right? This, this is freedom.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: be on the podcast.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: This is freedom. This is freedom.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yes. This is freedom.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: this is freedom.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Mm

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: This is freedom. So I was working for the Council of Chief State School Officers. And again, um, I was one of the first black women in leadership.

Let me tell you this. So I started at this job and it's like the first week. So probably like the second day, a black man comes into my office and he's like, uh, I want to give you the plantation orientation. And I was like, what did I, what did I just get myself into? And I had someone else come in my office and they told me like, um, you know, just be careful.

Like we, we can't really congregate like that. In big groups as black people, cause they'll think we're like, you know, I was like, what, like, this is my first week of being there. Um, I let, and I was, like I said, one of the first black women directors, they only had a few. And, um, I was leading a webinar [00:45:00] and after the webinar, I got a message from a black woman who was on the webinar and she was just, she didn't work there.

She, you know, an outside partner. And she was just like, I'm so happy to see you there. She was like, I've never seen a black woman leading anything at this. And I'm like, Oh, all right. What did I just sign up for? Right. And so my role was to inform national career readiness policy, um, in, across all States and to work with leadership and everything.

And so I was really excited. This was like my dream where I was literally working next door to the Capitol, um, in DC, I'm like, ah, mama, I made it right.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: sure.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: making more money than anybody in my family had ever made before. And I'm like, okay, all right, I'm here. And it was, oh man, I, how do I quickly encapsulate this?

It was more of the [00:46:00] same. More of the same getting into that position and realizing it was a bit of a disillusionment. Like, oh, the system is broken or it's not broken. The system is operating just as it was designed, right?

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: mean at this point you've seen it at all levels.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: All levels because I'm trying to find, I'm like, we can, we can do it. We can fix it.

Come on y'all. I see it. Cause we were still, I could see it. I'm like, if we just tell the truth, we can fix it. Like, if we just tell the truth. And so, um, In, in this role that was. And I tell this story actually on my podcast in my, in my first episode. But I remember early on in that position, I was leaving work one day and it was like eight o'clock at night and I'm exhausted.

I probably had worked like a 12, 13 hour day fighting about policy and how we show up and navigating [00:47:00] all these microaggressions. You know, I had been in a, we were actually in a, in a, in a leadership retreat. And we're learning about DEI and everything. And in this retreat, we were like in a break and I had my locks like pinned up and this white colleague tries to touch my hair.

She's like, I love your hair. And I like have to do like a matrix spin out of it. And I'm like, no. Don't ever do that again.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: of these things, and I'm just like, this is, this was it. This was my pinnacle. Like, I don't even know where to go after this. I've, I've done every single level.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: work and I'm walking down the street and I'm, I'm not a very emotional person at that time.

Outwardly, literally tears just start streaming down my face and I can't stop it. And I'm like, Oh my God, what is happening? It's like a Tuesday afternoon. And I'm crying, walking to the train to go home and this, this [00:48:00] voice in my head was like, I don't want to be here anymore. And it scared me. And I talk about this in the episode.

I'm like, cause immediately I didn't know if I meant, I didn't want to be at that job anymore, or I didn't want to be here anymore.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: And I was like, Oh, I got to get some help. I, I can't carry this anymore. So that was the moment when I decided to go to therapy and to find a therapist. Uh, because there was this disillusionment that I had dedicated, you know, more than a decade.

To this career and I got to this point where I'm just like for what, like, clearly, this is not something that I can fix myself. Right. And so then it goes to my own stuff. Right. Um, and so that's when I started therapy. And it was so many other [00:49:00] things that played into that. But, um, I remember kind of fast forwarding a little bit with my therapist.

Talking to her probably maybe about a year or so in, and I'm still at that job at that point. Um, and she had said to me, Najma, you don't have to work for yourself. And I'm like, no, I want to, I want to change the system from the inside. Like, no, I'm, you know, and she was like, how long has the organization been around?

And I think at that point, maybe they were going on nearing like a hundred years. And she was like,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: At this point,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: If you think you don't think if they wanted to fix education, they wouldn't have done it by now. And how it's like, Oh

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: shout out to your therapist and

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: man,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: around

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: man,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: telling hard truths

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: man, man. Cause I was like, I'm gonna have to go work for myself.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: I'm gonna have to go work for myself.

And so, and in that time, so we had a [00:50:00] pandemic, but even before the pandemic, so 2020, um, we, we had this racial reckoning of sorts. Right with George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery, um, and a number of police killings that have been made, um, kind of nationwide outrage. And so in that moment, you know, the organization, they ordered, you know, white fragility for everyone.

They ordered, uh, between the world and me for everyone. I don't think anybody ever read them. But they ordered them for the whole team.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: uh, I think pedagogy of the oppressed maybe was another one that they ordered for everybody. Um, and so we were supposed to, we're about to do, uh, anti racism action planning, or we're going to do all these things.

I'm like, okay, bet. Let's go. This is what I've been waiting for. Um, Um, and so I'm getting ready. I'm working with a group of states to help them with their policy. And I'm talking like, okay, this is [00:51:00] how this is what anti racism is. And this is how you incorporate it into your work and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

And then we got to the point where critical race theory became the boogeyman. And the organization was like, actually don't say black anymore. Don't even, because the Southern states don't like it and it makes them uncomfy. And so, you know, it's really about the state's rights to independence. And I was like, state's rights, that sounds like slavery.

So

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: For

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: I, I'm now in this space being me. If you've heard everything about my career, that's not going to work for me to censor me and to tell me what I can and can't say if I'm telling the truth, because we can't solve policy if we're not looking at. Who is the furthest away, right? Who's the closest to the pain?

That's where we have to target these resources. And that's what I was, it's called targeted universalism. That was the model that I was in still operate under is like, yes, we [00:52:00] can have universal goals, but you can't achieve a universal goal by funneling all the resources to those who are the closest to the goal,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: because then you just widen the gap.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yes.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: doesn't make common sense. And so, but it was like, when I'm saying, okay, we need to funnel these resources to black and Brown kids, immigrant youth, those, you know, everything, it was like, well, you can't really say that. Um, and so that was the point where I'm like, Nope, I'm done with this. Like I, and then we had a,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: in the background the whole

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: she

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: like

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: just like, just sipping, just waiting

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: for it

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: for you to realize,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yes.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: But the fear is still there, right? It's like, but I don't, what does that mean? Where am I gonna go? Like, I've got this check, it's nine to five. Um, but then the pandemic came, right? And it, and it flipped my world as everyone else's world upside down. I was working from home, um, [00:53:00] at that time, but I had so much stress, um, that was going on from this job that, uh, at some point my back went out.

I developed sciatica and I had never had back problems in my life. I was like 34, uh, at that time or something, 35, I don't know. Um, and. I was, I was healing though. I was in therapy. And so I'm able to start to understand how stress impacts our nervous system, impacts our physical health and how it starts to show up in our body.

Um, and so, and I wasn't treating my body well, right? Because stress, you're not working out. You're not moving. You're not eating right. It's like, I'm eat what I can when I can't. Right.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Hurry up. Shovel it in.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yes. No, there was no mindfulness. I wouldn't do another that. That

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: slow chewing.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: yeah,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Sure,

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Exactly. Um, and so all of this, we, it was like a [00:54:00] business trip or something.

I was supposed to go. I had no desire to go. It was with people who I had, they, the CEO, I had a mark on me. I had a mark on my back because I was pushing people to tell the truth. And so I was the problematic one. Now, I don't know if y'all have seen it, I heard this article from Pet to Threat. So I came in, everybody was excited.

I'm dope. Oh, Najma, Najma, Najma. And then I started talking and they're like, actually, shut up, little black girl. Nobody, nobody asked you,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: yeah

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: us accountable for what we said we were going to do. Right?

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Let me pause you for a second because this you've said a lot in this little amount of time And I think the first thing I want to talk about is the sciatica right and the Even going back to your story like I don't want to be here anymore And it all speaks to something that we talked about all the time on the podcast was like racial battle fatigue Right.

The fatigue of experiencing racial stress, racism, related stress day in and day out. And it shows up in these ways. And you said you had a therapist too, [00:55:00] right? And so it shows up in these ways in our physical, our body, emotional, behavioral, psychological, all these ways. Where for some of us, we realize it's happening and we can equate it.

And some people don't. tell themselves like, I can handle it.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: to do with the racism at my job. This is just in the blank or fill in a

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah. Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: vacation, it'll be all over with and not really being able to accept lots of reasons. Like, no, actually, the racism I'm experiencing in my workplace, beyond and also out there in the

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: the workplace, because we're there the most, is impacting my health. Um, and so I just wanted to say, I just want to pause when people talk about that and just say like racial battle fatigue for those in our audience who've never heard of it the amount of time we lose. coping with racial stress and trauma, right? And it costs us hospital bills. It costs us time, but our family costs us so much [00:56:00] and we need to be in spaces and you're getting to this, I'm sure, where we're not experiencing racial battle fatigue as much because how do we avoid racism in America

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah, yeah,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: how do we like dampen that down and so that we

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: yeah,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: absolutely. I tell people, for me and for everyone, it has to hurt enough first.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Ooh, wee.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: a threshold for pain, you know? I had a high tolerance for pain. I had a high tolerance for pain until I literally couldn't walk. I literally couldn't walk. And I, and I, at this time, this, this, this work is very spiritual for me as well. Um, and. All of these synchronicities popped up. I saw this poem, I want to say by Zora Neale Hurston.

No, Alice Walker. Oh, I have to find it. But it was basically talking about the pain that we carry, that you're talking [00:57:00] about, and like at the end of the poem, it was talking about it's breaking your back and I'm literally laying there. Can't walk in this pole. It popped up on my Instagram or something, right?

Uh, in the universe. Right. And I'm reading it and I'm like, Oh, it is breaking my back. Like I'm trying to carry all of this and I have to put it down. I have to put it down and I have to focus on why am I here? Why am I here? Beyond my achievements, beyond trying to fix this system. Um, that is not possible to fix.

I'm sorry, y'all. It is not because it's doing what it was designed to do.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Mm

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: System cannot fix itself. Even with the best of intentions, once you're inside of it. You're a part of it and you can work to disrupt it, but eventually it will spit you out because you are now a foreign object

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: to the system, right?

[00:58:00] Like your, your cancer is to the system. So it's going to expel you in one way or another. It just is. I'm sorry, but you can do some good while you're there, you can, but you have to be aware of what is it doing to you in return and start to take notice and learning how to take care of yourself outside of, of, of these systems.

And then having your exit strategy, right?

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Having that exit strategy. And so, um, yeah, they ended up, so I went on medical leave for my back and long story short, they basically were like, don't come back. They were like, actually, you know, we can't find any funding. They told me that career readiness was no longer a priority for the country.

Um, at a time where we're facing economic recovery from a pandemic. And that's all anybody is talking about is how we're [00:59:00] preparing young people for the future. So I was like, Oh, I see. I see. So it was actually no longer my choice. God, the universe, the ancestors were like, girl, get out, get out. And so it was actually a blessing because I was on medical leave.

I had, you know, we had good benefits. That was one thing. Um, my medical leave covered me for like a month or so. And then they're like, we'll put you on administrative leave after that paid administrative leave.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: they shut down my email before I even was gone. Right. Um, It was, it was, it was interesting.

And so I spent that time though, that two, maybe two and a half, three months building my business. And so I, I created the Chisholm group, uh, named after Shirley Chisholm, my shero, uh, was economic justice and education consulting firm, because I knew that career readiness was still a priority for the country.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: hmm.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: it was like, but I can do it in my own way because a lot of the people that I worked with, they love the work that I was doing and [01:00:00] how I was supporting them and telling the truth and really supporting young people. So actually, a lot of my, uh, well, some of my clients, uh, that I worked with, uh, At that organization, they followed me over and I started subcontracting.

And so at the end of 2021, going into 2022, this is actually my third year. Um, well, I just completed my third year of working for myself full time.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Congratulations.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: you. Yeah. So that was my journey through education up until starting and going out on my own in 2022.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah, I mean, that's a story, right?

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: it's a lot.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: yeah, you all like the high school and you were in colleges, smaller colleges, larger one and the federal nonprofit, like all these ways that you were able to as much as you could

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: [01:01:00] Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: right? Someone asked you, we know what the straw was

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Mhm.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: that you talk about this. Like, folks. The decision comes up. The exit's going to tell you either you're going to get shoved off the exit or you, you know, it's coming up for a, for a lot of people, unless you want to turn your head or turn an eye away from harm. Like folks who are like 50 years and I've been 50 years in the same space.

Like you've, you've, you've closed your eyes to a lot of harm to, to, to young people and to yourself and to your colleagues and you, for whatever reason that has happened. I think, um, Um, I think I want to ask you two questions. The first one is, is there a black educator that you would like to shout out?

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: I would shout out my mentor that I talked about who made me want to go into higher ed in the first place. So [01:02:00] Takiya Howard, um, at that time she was Takiya Oster, but she has been my mentor since then. I still am connected to her. Uh, she's also my soror, I'm a Delta. And so. She really taught me what it meant to be

confident in myself, to be a leader, to use my voice, to stand up for things, uh, she really encouraged my leadership in that way. And I could always. I was basically modeling myself after her. Modeling my career. Like she was fly. Uh, everybody was just like, Oh, Takiyah is dope. Like you can go talk to her about anything.

And so I always wanted to be that person who felt, [01:03:00] who, who could provide that feeling for people that you could come to them without judgment. I mean, she, she, there were times she would just look at me and be like, what's wrong? And one time she predicted something that was going on with me that I'm like, how the hell did

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah. Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: and she was just there though. Like even on the weekends, like when our friend group Somebody was, you know, going through a crisis. She showed up on the weekend and she wasn't working. She was working in multicultural affairs. She didn't need to be there. Um, but she was, and like I said, over the years, she's just been a mentor to me when I'm applying for jobs, like she was always like, Put her down as my recommendation, my reference.

Um, just talking to her about my career, things that I was experiencing along the way. So, and she still works in higher ed now, different university, but she has made a career out of [01:04:00] molding and supporting young black youth in particular, but minority students as well. To really lean into our brilliance and to lean into our power.

Uh, so yeah, I would shout out to, to Kia for sure.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Shout out to her. Thank

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yes.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: And our last question is you, and this is, I can see the theme and I'm

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yeah,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: reflected on this. You talk about this in

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: yeah,

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: like you said, for you, what does it mean to be well? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: to mind when you ask me that question There's this book called the salt eaters and in the book a quote that is in there. I'm paraphrasing a bit is You say you want to be well, are you sure my dear to be well is a lot of work It's a lot of work it [01:05:00] we talked about healing and wanting to be healed You have to go Through You have to acknowledge all the ugliness, all the pain, all the things that you've been running away from all these years, the things that you're avoiding and wanting to see, so being well is facing that truth, beholding yourself with grace.

I talk about my podcast called the free black girl podcast. And I chronicled my own healing journey. When I started the Chisholm group, I also started coaching. I coached black women on how to quit their jobs and start their own businesses. And when I would start working with my clients, I would tell them, I'm your coach.

I'm not a therapist, but you need to get a therapist because this is going to tap dance on all of your cells. And they would look at me and they'd be like, okay, cool. But then they would be like, I don't really, I don't know what that means. How, what does being well [01:06:00] mean? Well, how does, what is healing actually mean?

And at that point I had been with my therapist for probably about four years at that point. And so, and she's a somatic healer. And so we work on mind and body beyond talking about it. Cause I'm smart. A lot of y'all are smart. We can enter intellectualize our pain all day.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Oh, for sure.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: But this is about feeling it.

Being well is about allowing yourself the space to actually feel it and to feel through it and to understand what is it doing to my body. What is, what is little me asking for in these moments? When I'm feeling anxious, I'm like, okay, little Najma, little Naji, what do you need? What's going on? And so it's really getting in touch with who you are.

And so that's why I started my podcast, because as I was working with my clients, I'm like, Oh, I have to, to share my journey with people.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Mm

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: I have to share how I got free. Being well is being free. Like I have this shirt on, it's one of my, my merch line, [01:07:00] shameless plug, but free joy.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah.

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: like the active space of freeing ourselves.

And self liberation, that's what being well is to me, the freedom to feel all the messiness, to be imperfect because perfection is not a thing. Being well means allowing yourself the grace and compassion to show up fully as yourself and who you are and to, and to rest when you need to, and to know that you don't have to do anything to deserve that rest.

That is And in this moment right now that we are facing in this country, being well also means being able to stay grounded, to stay centered amongst all the noise, even when chaos is [01:08:00] around you, being able to know why you're doing what you're doing, to know who you are. But then also to know that you're a part of a greater community and that we have each other.

So being well means being able to be a part of a beautiful community that we support each other.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Thank you. you so much. I

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Thank you.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: this. Um, folks. Check out the podcast. Check

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Yes. Yes.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: free us those of us who are trying to figure that out. We'll have all of our information in the show notes, all the information on the exit interview podcast website. this was a beautiful conversation. I thank you

najmah-ahmad--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_111912: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yes. And definitely reach out, um, even if it's just [01:09:00] to commiserate and, and join the community for sure.

dr--asia-lyons---she-her-_1_01-22-2025_091909: Yeah. All right, folks. Another episode of the Exit Interview, a podcast for black educators. Make sure to go out and treat yourself well, folks, and share this podcast with other folks who could definitely benefit. And we'll talk to you later. Peace.