Finding Identity and Building Community with Jenna Greenwood

 Welcome back to another episode of the Exit interview of podcast for Black educators, and we are live at Queen Scrumpy House.

I am so excited to be here. Jenna and I had a conversation day one. And Jenna said, um, my, my grandma was the first black educator in Colorado. Right? That's what I said. I was like, oh, really? So, um, this exit interview is gonna be a little bit different in that Jenna is still in higher education, but I wanted to capture the story of Jenna's grandmother capture story, what it means to be in higher ed.

And stay in higher ed. And Jenna's also the cofo. Co-founder. Co-owner. Thank you. I'm so founder, co-owner of Quince Coffee House, and so we wanna talk about like what it needs to be well and what you're doing now when you're still working in higher ed or K 12, but still have other things that you love and want to do.

So, so excited. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on with Jenna. Yes, of course. Give it up for dinner please. Um, and so, Jenna. I said, go ahead and write a, a bio and send a bio in to me so I could read it to the audience before we got started. Read the bio this morning. I'm like, if I read this bio, the podcast episode's over, because I just told everybody everything.

So we won't, we won't, um, read the bio today right now. But you'll hear through the stories and questions that we ask, uh, the story of what, um, Jen is experiencing and all the things as far as Marie Greenwood and. Clance coffee house, all the other things. So let's go ahead and get started. So if you know anything about the podcast, I ask the same questions to every guest, and I'll start off with the first one for, um, tell me your journey into education.

How did you know that education was for you? 

Sure. Um, so this question is the one that's been the hardest for me. Um, I've split it into like. Three specific phases of life. Um, so childhood. Yeah. I grew up with a lot of educators, a lot of public servants. So, um, my grandma, she was the first black tenured teacher in Denver.

So, um, she started in the 1930s at Whittier. Um, Whittier Elementary. She only taught elementary school. She wanted to only teach first graders, no one over the age of eight. 'cause she wanted to help students, um, get a really strong foundation. So I think that that shaped a lot of my childhood and entry into education.

There was a lot that I was doing as a kid related to, uh, ways in which we were celebrating and honoring her life. Um, 'cause at the point that I was sort of woken up to what and all that, she was, um, we were just doing a lot of celebrating and she was doing a lot of volunteering. So really big. Well, small shoes to fill.

'cause she was only five foot tall. She was a mighty Sagittarius woman, uh, with a big personality. My most significant memory with her is just that she would teach, uh, she would help me read. So after school, a couple times a week, we would go to the library, um, and then she would recl with the big red dog.

She had the. Puppets. So she would do that, um, for both of us when we were kids. Uh, we would read with her. And so just like getting that basic literacy skill started, uh, while she was doing her laundry at my parents' house growing up. So yeah, I think education, it was definitely instilled that it was important.

She was one of the many educators, uh, that I was raised around. I like to say that I was raised, um. Definitely in a village, a community of black women, um, black working adults. Um, both my parents had to work full time and all their friends had to work full time. And so they kind of all worked together to support us children in the community to make sure that we could get the opportunities that we needed to be successful.

And so I feel lucky enough that both my mom's best friends were also teachers. Uh, and they taught a lot about education to us, um, and just the importance of doing the best that we can in our community. And so that was something that was just. Very matter of fact to me. So, yeah, um, academically I struggled a lot.

I've got a lot of learning things, um, that made it really challenging in school. Um, I went to Stanley British Primary School, which is a private school here. Um, my aunt was an administrator there for years and years, and so, um, we had the opportunity to go to private school, which, uh, was great. And also I didn't have letter grades and I called my teacher by their first name.

And so. I think I wasn't as aware of the ways in which my brain worked differently than other students. And so it was a rude awakening when I went to high school, um, and had letter grades and wasn't performing the best that I wanted to. Um, but I think one of the things that I definitely learned from my grandma, um, and she helped reinforce, is that learning happens outside of the classroom the most.

Um, and that's where the continued education will happen is when we're. Um, teaching and learning each other and also the importance of like extracurriculars. And so that's kind of how I survived most of my schooling, um, is through. The stuff that I was like on the side, really involved in student government, really involved in sports, um, really involved in just community efforts to be able to support the people around me.

Um, and I was able to make it with the people that I knew. I had a lot of help from friends and community, which is, I. The same. Now, 

can I pause you for a second? Yeah. So it's interesting that you're using, you're saying survived. Mm-hmm. Right? And make it as far as you're talking about the high school 

portion?

Yeah. Or the whole, I would say I, I struggled academically like pretty significantly through. College. Um, I think I, I had it in my head that I wasn't an academic person, but I, I just liked a bunch of, like fundamental skills, so math, reading, it just, I just, it was just confusing. I didn't have the support that I needed, and so it did feel like that because I, I felt other for a lot of other reasons too, identity based stuff that was going on that I was starting to figure out about myself.

But yeah, it did definitely feel like. A survival sort of thing. Um, just because I didn't really like it that much and I also felt really isolated in the experience that I was having. So 

I wanna point out that I know that my daughter also goes to private school, and I think that a lot of folks make assumptions about if you pay for schooling, then certainly your kid's gonna.

Come out X, Y, and Z. Or if you don't pay for schooling, your kid's gonna come out. And I think that's something to, as I'm talking to folks who have been on the podcast, who've taught in places like juvenile justice systems who've taught in K 12 and public and private sector who come through TFA, all these different ways, I.

When it comes down to it, it is a lot of different factors that cause our students to be successful. Mm-hmm. And how we define success too, right? Where some people think it has to be straight A's, and that's just what success is versus. Like you're saying, extracurriculars and community is so important.

Mm-hmm. So I just wanted to pause and point that out to, to you or to the audience that like, that's really important because I know I talk about my daughter often. Many folks know that she loves sewing club at her school. Mm-hmm. And it is working on a quilt and sewing club, and that's bringing her joy to be able to do that after school.

Right. Where maybe it's on a particular day that's tough in math or language arts or whatever. That being able to be in those extracurriculars is really important. So when we talk about taking those away from our students mm-hmm. And like, you gotta go to math club because you're behind, where is the joy in the learning?

Mm-hmm. So I just wanted to pause you for that, but go ahead. 

Thank you. I appreciate you saying that. Yeah. That I, extracurricular saved me. Sports saved me, music saved me. That was it. Um, I had my team and that I stuck with for a good portion of my youth. And then my music is just something that's important in my family.

So I was, uh, I'm a drummer mostly, um, but also did a lot of other. Forms of music, um, that just helped me be able to like continue to have the joy while also like getting so many messages of failure on a constant basis. And it, again, it was super isolating to be going through that. And then when I got to the point of.

It was, it's also confusing because of my proximity to whiteness. So, because I went to private school and then I went to East, which like, you know, depending on what version of East you get, like it can be a different experience. And so I think that the ways in which other students were getting access to resources was not, I just wasn't having that same experience and I didn't have the awareness that it was different for me.

And so, um, when it came to applying for college, it was like. Just me in the basement by myself just trying to figuring out like what exactly I was supposed to do. Um, and then ultimately only got two schools, so CU and CSU, and my brother was at cu so I decided to go there and felt pretty disappointed in myself.

But I do think that when I got to higher education, that's kind of where I started to get some footing and a lot more self-confidence because I was involved in more substantial ways of engagement. So like student government, I was an orientation leader. Um, I was super duper involved at CU and I think that that then helped me with my identity 'cause I was studying sociology and so I started to get some language around like social constructionism and that like, you know, as a society we socially construct everything that we exist in and all the media and how we reinforce those things interpersonally.

And so I felt a lot more, uh, comfortable in my own skin and also learned about student affairs as a profession where I could. Work in college, working with students, um, similar to me, um, as they navigate the different challenges that come with existing at a predominantly white institution. 

So let me ask you a question.

I, it's interesting because you talked about the early years with your grandmother and her supporting your reading. I. And then we fast forward to you going into school and filling, filling out applications by yourself, right? Mm-hmm. And then you going to school and you're, it sounds like you find your way to being again successful.

What was the conversation with your family when you decided that college was for you and that you were gonna pursue it and not only pursue college, but then go into higher education as a career? 

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that's hard is that I had a lot of educators around my parents themselves, like.

They're not that academically minded. Um, both of them have degrees in higher education. My mom has a master's degree, but she's a physical therapist and my dad has been like a business owner. And so there just wasn't a lot of concrete structure they could provide and we weren't in a position to be able to like pay for a college counselor.

And so I think that in different parts of my life, they definitely wanted to help. Me, but like at a certain point they couldn't really help with my math and work anymore. They couldn't really help with these things, and so I was kind of alone. And so it was like more of like a moral support thing. 

Mm-hmm.

But going to college was a, was just like, period, you have to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that that was something that I embodied and I knew that, that this was what I needed to do, but it was, yeah. Getting from point A to point B. You know, starting east was like a big blow to my confidence. 'cause I got letter grades and they weren't great.

And then start, you know, going into college was like another, like, wow, this is a rude awakening of the things that I know that I'm missing. But I just had to get through it. 

Yeah. And 

like I have realized that like, wherever I'm gonna end up, I'm, I can make the best of the situation. And so, because I'm not gonna get the same opportunities as folks based on academics is what the realization that I had.

Like, I just, you know. I decided to make the best of it after crying on the phone during my first semester freshman year, to like everyone in my family, like, I can't do this. I'm not cut out for this. And then just kind of started to figure it out. 

Yeah, it's real. That's so real. I think I had the same experience.

I'm like, what am I doing here? I went to school, I went to engineering school for two years and I wanted to be, well, no, my father wanted me to be a chemical engineer and my, and I just, you know, I said chemical engineering people. Oh wow. And I went for that. And then that second year. I got a letter in the mail over the summer, like, so about you not coming back next semester.

Right. And, and having to find my way. But yeah, like figuring out ultimately. So you were finishing college and I read in your bio that you did some other work before coming to see you Boulder. So tell me about that or told you about that work. Yeah, so 

I feel like that was then like the, the, the beginning of the stage that I'm in now where I, I learned that higher education was a profession that you could pursue.

I ended up doing AmeriCorps right after graduation. I knew that I wanted to do a term of service, and so I worked in a college access nonprofit where I learned without a lot of training just about like some of the barriers that students face, um, specifically the population. I worked with students in community college in St.

Paul, and so I think just learning like how complex the system was, it was really frustrating. I felt like I wasn't able to be supportive, and so I decided to. Eventually pursuing my master's degree in student affairs. Um, I actually took a job, um, at the University of Oregon after that. Um, 'cause I was moving there and it was between housing and financial aid and I just picked financial aid.

So it's like a similar thing. I usually have two choices, which apparently is like a psychology hack. If you give yourself two choices, then it makes it easier when you're like trying to make a decision. Okay. So I think, I guess I've just been doing it the right way, but, um, if it works, if it ain't broke, yeah.

So I didn't wanna live in housing 'cause I am a cancer and I like my home. And so I, I didn't, I didn't wanna live in the residence house and so I chose to work in financially and it was brutal. It was like a similar, like very like math focused, like detail oriented work that I just wasn't finding a lot of success in.

I quickly decided to start my master's degree. So, um, when I was in Oregon I was mostly working full-time. Um. And then pursuing my graduate degree full-time. 'cause I didn't really want to be doing the work that I was doing and that, yeah. But financial aid, like essentially changed my life because while I hated it, like every single minute of it for the three years, I learned so, so, so much information that not a lot of people know and not a lot of people like me know.

And so I realized that like the expertise that I was able to learn at that school would really, really benefit students, um, in a way that not a lot of students were able to get support. And, and so, um, when I came back home, I started doing that in the student center that I was working in, um, which is like a diversity center in the college of engineering at cu.

I just started kind of helping students navigate financial aid and like telling 'em tips and strategies in a way that like. It was less transactional than they might experience working in the financial aid office. Mm-hmm. Because I was working in student programming. So, 

yeah, I think so. And I, this is one of the reasons why we, I talked about you coming on the podcast was.

Yes. Uh, to share your story, but also the financial aid part, right? So for so many people, they're trying to fill out the form for their child or fill out the form for themselves, and there's obviously hacks and things that we should know. And I do wanna ask you that question a little bit later on about like, what's some things like right away, because you're still doing that work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What can people take away and tell their nieces, nephews. Whatever, so that, especially in these times when we talk about financial aid and is it gonna exist and what's happening, like how that they can continue to make sure that they're the children that they're supporting or the. Teens that they're supporting are able to get a chance at college when most of us need loans.

Mm-hmm. So, 

yeah, since we're talking about it, tell us what you're doing now. 

Sure. Yeah. So my role right now, uh, I'm the assistant director for scholarships and college affordability. So it's something that I sort of created. Um, I was able to take on the responsibilities of, um, awarding scholarships in the College of Engineering.

So that's added some. Some, like a big amount, which has been good, uh, for the legitimacy of it. But where my heart is and the work that I've sort of like developed a philosophy around is college affordability advising. Um, which is just essentially to help, you know, give students tools, tips and resources to be able to, uh, make informed decisions about paying for college.

And so, um, I work in the College of Engineering specifically, um, focusing on supporting that population of students. Um, so all. You know, explain like how different processes work. I'll help coach them if they're gonna go meet with the financial aid office. I'll explain how scholarships financially works just in general.

So I really try to break down the sort of the hidden curriculum that comes with higher education, financially aid being one of them. To be able to help equip them with the knowledge so they can walk into that finding. Usually the office know exactly what they're talking about, uh, 'cause a lot of the time it is gonna be more transactional and less, you know, developmental for students.

And so I wanna make sure that they have a grasp, like an empowered grasp understanding about how it all works. I also co-manage the Lattice first Generation scholarship program. Uh, which is a full ride for first Gen Colorado residents, um, in the College of Engineering. Um, so just a cool program, um, to be able to work with a cohort of students, um, because it's so heavily finance, financial based, the work individually to make sure the parent work packages and work.

Um, they have everything that they need so they can just focus on the school. Um, and the way that we're structuring the model is a, is kind of a brainchild in the fact that we're using the aid that they're already gonna be eligible for from the state and the federal government. And we're just layering on top to fill the gap.

And so we're able to give it to a lot more students, um, because we're targeting students that are already gonna get opportunities based on their eligibility criteria. Um, to be able to give them this, that wouldn't, you know, that doesn't require like a massively large endowment to pay for a bunch of students.

Um, that just feels really inaccessible. 

So, can I ask you a question? Sure. So first things first, y'all heard engineering degree for rides, right? I'm not going back in engineering school was it for me, right? I failed horribly. But, so you talked about, and I wanna come back to this, you talked about hidden curriculum.

Mm-hmm. And this need to help students have a con, navigate a conversation and teach them the hidden curriculum. If you could give us three things, or three tips, or three ideas that you give your students before they go and have that conversation. 

So I think with students, I think I really focus on them building a strategy.

Um, I, I tell students that, you know, applying for scholarships doesn't end. In high school, it's a continuous process, um, because you gotta treat it like a part-time job, um, and keep doing it. There's students that I've worked with that by the time that they're graduating, they've got their full year paid for, which with how expensive education is in inflation, that's, I mean, like a car or like something nice.

And so, um, I tell students to continue to like integrate it into their lives and treat it like a part-time job. Um, so, but building their college affordability strategy, um, which also includes thinking about how they can reduce costs. So before they're going to look for scholarships, like what are the ways that I can think to reduce my costs as far as like in my default into a housing situation or like, you know, a more expensive housing option.

Am I in, do I have the health insurance that's gonna be a lot more expensive. Um, are there things that I can do to just like, you know, if, if it's around. To get their textbooks. They're taking summer classes, they're taking some of their base level classes at like a community college. So like getting really creative about ways that they can lower the overall cost, um, I think is something that I'm also saying, I tell students to prioritize applying for anything and everything within the institution first 'cause it's just gonna be like a.

The best bang for their book. Um, so even if it doesn't seem like a scholarship, so looking at like alumni associations or affinity based centers or like leadership programs, stuff like that and the institution and, um, keeping your eyes and ears open for like, stuff that could be a possibility. Research, um, becoming a resident hall advisor, like stuff like that.

Getting creative because you gotta look at the full.

You good? No, you 

are okay. We'll just put a little break. So while that's happening, how's everybody going anyway? It's spicy season. Need my season in the house? Alright, so we were talking about, and I definitely wanna keep some of that action in the, in the vibe, right? Uh, we are talking about hidden curriculum.

Yes. So you said, uh, reduce your costs, so your housing costs, your health insurance costs. If you can take classes at the community college or some other ways to reduce those costs. Yeah. You also talked about applying for scholarships, like your part-time job. And I love that because we do see a lot of high school students, especially around this time, starting to get to scholarships, right.

Uh, seniors. And they say, you get this much, this much. And I don't see too many folks in higher education saying, I'm a freshman and I just got another $30,000. Scholarships. So I'm glad that you're saying that. Do you, and you said applying for monies for your alumni associations. Think about being a resident assistant, a resident hall assistant, which my sister did, and that was live because.

She had no roommate, so I used to come up there and hang out with her all the time. She also, if you know anybody knows my sister, she also had a giant, nevermind. I'll tell that story later, my kids in the room. But, and then also thinking about research grants. I love that. So, anything else you wanna share?

No, I think, yeah, I think that that's, that's pretty much it. When I tell students to create a strategy, I tell them to understand their true costs, actually understand how it works, and then prioritize institutional scholarships first, and then local scholarships next. So that's the order of operations. And I think that, um, there's just a lot of like.

Oh my God. Oh my God, oh my god. College is so expensive. But not actually understanding like the, like what, like the sticker price, but also understanding like what it's gonna mean for you before making that decision. And there's also websites out there that will break down the cost for you. And so like I recommend like putting it on a spreadsheet so you can see like school to school and actually just make an informed decision.

So. Like, not promising that you're gonna get everything under the sun, but knowing that like if you're intentional about it and you're strategic about it, you can make an informed decision and make one that is like, has all the elements that you want. Um, but it's also like at the right price and has everything.

But I, for some reason, I think that we don't really spend that much time being intentional about it. Um, and then for students that don't know, I think, you know, obviously it's not their fault. 

Yeah. So I think we had a conversation on Monday and you were saying that you all just had. Like a retreat to support your, your students, right?

Mm-hmm. What's going on with their mental health and all these things? Can you see how you support students in this capacity? With their wellness. Um, tell us what are you noticing or what are some of the, um, things that you're hearing from students in college that are like, we need support on this. So we're, I'm really feeling alone on these things.

Like what are you hearing from them when they come to talk to you? 

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think that, so it's a little bit skewed 'cause engineers are like already so stressed. Mm-hmm. Like, it's such a stressful career. Sure. Um, I particularly love working with engineers because of. Um, how quickly can, like, create upward mobility?

Um, you can graduate making six figures. Um, it's pretty common to do. And so, um, with just a bachelor's degree and so it just like, feels really meaningful. But students are scared. They are worried about, you know, family getting deported. They're worried about, um, politics getting in their way of, you know, their ability to complete their degree Programs.

And also it's really, really expensive. And so students are working like 2, 3, 4 jobs to be able to make it work. And yeah, I think that there's not a lot of buy-in for like, what's the point? Especially when the population of students that are in school right now, like we're in high school during the pandemic.

And so I think it was a little bit of confusing as to what exactly the point is. And so I think that that piece on mental, mental health and wellness is more important than ever because. I think there isn't a lot that they're looking forward to. And there's also, uh, a major disconnect, uh, within each other because of the ways in which they were completing, you know, the high school by themselves and, and at home.

Um, and so there's just like a sadness around that. Um. Um, something that we focus on and prioritize in the program is, um, mindfulness. So that's something that me and the, uh, co-director, co-pro, co co-pro program manager, um, sort of has have fused and has been around, um, the nervous system. And students having language to be able to understand what's going on inside of them, um, and to be able to attend.

Um, because they're in situations a lot where they're really, really, really dysregulated because of everything that's going on. And so, um, we really focused on giving them tools in language around nervous system and mindfulness and, um, being grounded in their own experience to be able to come back to, um, 'cause that feels like a big part of, um, how they're gonna continue to.

And how challenging things are. 

Thank you. Um, in that same vein, typically what we talk about is like, now that you've left education, what are you doing now? But you're obviously still supporting students, so I'll ask a different question and then shift the other one. Um, what do you feel that schools, school districts, unions, higher education can do to retain black educators?

Um, I think I've said this so many times in K 12, at least, and CDE can verify this, the Colorado Department of Education, we have less than a thousand black teachers in the state of Colorado. That does not count for higher ed. I don't think they count higher education, but it's scarce, right? So thinking that really we need to be focused on.

Obviously re um, recruitment, but retention of our black educators. What do you feel like seeing, have you been in your school for eight years, you said? Yeah. What have you noticed as a theme? What do you think keeps people there? I mean, is it money? Is it community? What do you, what's some ideas that you have for retention?

Yeah, so this was the other question of the five questions that I felt so stumped by, because I feel like I hear this question and literally my mind goes blank because I've been in so many different. Settings where they're asking me that question and then it's just like, can I cuss full of shit? Go for it.

Go for it. That it's like, I don't, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not bought in. That's into the way in which the institution is created that's actually gonna be able to support me. Like I really want to just be able to get paid what I deserve. I really wanna be able to have the space to be able to not be in like.

The whiteness all the time. Like I want to be able to just like, have space to exist as a human. Um, I want to be able to, um, be able to have just like balance and like focus on me as a human. And I feel like that's the thing that like. Unless these institutions drastically shift, I, I just don't know how it's actually, actually feasible.

And this is, you know, where I would talk about the shop, if that's a big part of, you know, where I was when I bought the coffee shop, was about to leave. Like I was, you know, on leave trying to figure out like where I was gonna go, um, from education. Just because I was feeling, yeah, like tired, hopeless, burnt out.

And then also just like. The compassion fatigue for the students that I was wanting to support. Um, it just, I just, I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't see the forest of the trees. And so the shop presented as an opportunity actually while I was on leave. Um. And I just, you know, even just like being able to like wash dishes was felt so real and tangible.

Um, and so it was something that I didn't really know that my, like body needed. And, um, as it's sort of progressed into what it is now as an experience that's super duper liberating, but doesn't have the resources that I have, I decided that both is the balance that I wanted at least now in this, yeah.

Point in life where I'm still learning about business ownership, I'm still learning about community organizing. This way I'm still learning about existing outside of an institution. And what that means for me and the folks that I'm working in collaboration with, um, to create this space that is like intended to be more liberating and less rooted in white supremacy and less rooted in capitalism.

But like that takes time to figure out what that looks like in practice. So. Having this as a creative outlet and like a, a space to hold me has helped me be able to reengage in the institution. And I guess just going back to your question around retention, it's everything that like, I have just stopped.

I've stopped pushing, I've stopped. Speaking up. I've just, I mean, obviously when it comes to students like they're, that's like the hard line. Like, I'm going to continue to advocate for students, but I will, I have this internal check that I do every time something happens, which happens, all, you know, stuff happens all the time.

Like, is this worth it? 

Mm-hmm. Because it's 

not, it's not, I mean, it's just not it, it's not because I just truly don't know that the institution is shaped in a way that's going to be able to hold my full experience as a human. And so, um, I have to protect my peace and, um. Yeah. Make that conscious decision whether or not I'm gonna engage and then reinforce and fuel that energy into whatever additional thing I'm doing outside that, um, feels more liberating and fraying for me as a human.

Yes. Say that. So I, I, I have to, I always ask that question, but I often say when I'm having that conversation with people, I don't believe that that systems want to change, and I don't believe that there is a strategy to retain. But I always wanna leave it up to the, the guest to say like, this is what I believe.

What's interesting is when I, I think we're on episode 61, the theme across the board is Never Money. A lot of it is, listen, I. And then move to action. Mm-hmm. Right? And that's like the main thing. And if you're going to give me more responsibility, give me more money. Mm-hmm. Right? But saying, I really like the way you show up for students, so here's some more responsibility.

It's not the badge of honor that people think it is. Right? Mm-hmm. So I'm glad I'm, I'm glad you were honest, right? Because you know. Many a times I'm out in community or doing different things and workshops and folks come up who say like, I'm an ally. I, I wanna know what we can do. And it's like, you solely are not the university, solely are not Cherokee school district, AP P-S-D-P-S, whatever district.

So I think it is hard to say like what they can do. And it's interesting that you talk about. Basically what you just said was pick your battles. 

Mm-hmm. 

Right? And many of us spend our time like, that's racist. Such, such, such, such. Right. And, and that whack-a-mole movement of constantly trying to fix systems and comb through policies.

And burn ourselves up and we quit or we go on leave or whatever the situation and the system continues to do what it does, right? And so it's hard for some folks to, to step back from every battle, but for the longevity of our, our mental health, our spiritual health, our emotional everything, there has to be that.

And Dr. William Smith came on the podcast season one, and he created racial, he coined racial battle fatigue, which is part of my research. And he said that, he said, pick your battles. Find, create a home that's, um, that's centered in black excellence. Mm-hmm. Get out into nature, eat well. Mm-hmm. And if you gotta leave, get the hell on.

Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Um, and people don't wanna hear number five, they're like this, I'm gonna keep fighting a good fight. And I'm like, bro. I'll see you on another side, right? Yeah, yeah. No, thank you for sharing that. 

So 

yeah, 

I think, I guess just one thing that I do that when I was thinking about this question, I had like had a list of things of just like, but also like my white counterparts that are like touting themselves as allies.

Like just like also learn how to be an accomplice. Like also learn how to like actually build relationship in a way that we can like drop our ego and like want to actually learn about our experiences. Yeah. Because I do think that while they're not the institution, they are the people that we're working with every single day and there's some, you know, white allies that wanna support us and I think that like a big part of.

That. And then also I feel like the greater position that we're in in society right now is relationship building. 

Mm-hmm. 

And like getting beyond the pseudo connection and like superficial interactions to actually being able to like connect as on a human level and like hear what that experience is and honor and hold that person as a full human.

And so I think that, I do feel like for folks that are trying to be an allyship, really learning how to be an accomplice and really learning how to build relationship that is sustaining in generative. Um, I think will be, is important. 

Yeah, I agree. What I, what I struggle with is like the, what can I do as if books don't exist.

Yeah, that's a good point too. Yes, I agree. Like the same TED talk that I watched, the same training that I was in, that Stacy did in this district, like the same things. I'm not doing anything magical that you can't find out. Right. We're past white fragility being like the only book that people understand.

And so when people ask that, like, what can I do? You know what you can do. Right, right, right. Like stop wasting time. Right? Yeah. Um, so you talked about Quince being this place and I heard people with the washing dishes like, yes, I feel like every educator has like that. Fuck it job, where it's like, mine is thrift store, putting things back on the hanger and get it up.

That's it. Like I just, when I was in the depths of teaching sixth grade and figuring it all out, it was that, or Elle and books at the library. Mm-hmm. Like I didn't wanna think, I just wanted to just. Put my headphones on and push a car or put things back on the hanger, or everybody knows that their store's, uh, toy section is always a mess.

Right. I just wanna do that. Right. But you found Quince. I did. I need you to talk about how it came to be the vibe in this place. This is my second home. Yes. Zoe got, has. What she knows her famous order. Aham Cheese Croissant and a Leo drink. Leo. Right? With whipped cream. With the whipped cream. With the whipped cream, right.

Hurry up. Right? So like why Quince? Obviously everybody can't own a coffee shop, but why is this for you? 

Yeah, I mean, so the opportunity really, like just serendipitously happened. So, um, Kate, Catherine, uh, br who is one of the black educators that I'll definitely call out. Um, she bought this coffee shop and sent me like casual texts like, Hey, I bought this shop 'cause she left the university.

So we met at CU Boulder, um, doing diversity work together, scholarships and diversity work together. Um, but she left the university and decided to buy a coffee shop, and she was like, it's five minutes from your house, which 

this is okay. Yes, 

exactly. Um, yeah. And so I just started coming and there was something about this place and I was like, I don't know anything about business and I would love to help you with this, so let's, like, let's do it.

And so we really decided to take what we'd learned from, um, being in diversity spaces in higher education and. Um, have infused that into this space. So it was like, you know, we don't have a lot of affinity based spaces for adults, you know, once you get past the educational experience. And so, um, we have just wanted this place to exist and we, um, an extension of, you know, the love and support that we want to give out to people and be a space that can feel.

Um, affirming and liberating and supportive and restorative and connective, uh, as much as possible. And it's hard like running a business is. It's hard, but I think the thing that both of us are realizing is that education, being, working in education sets you up to be able to do a lot of different things.

How so? 

Just because of the number of different things that you have to balance as an educator. I mean, you are just already equipped to like, think on your feet, like move fast, think strategically, do a lot with very little resources. Right. Um, and then also connect with people. Obviously I think teachers are like the model.

They can be the model for connecting with, with humans. And so I think that like. Um, being able to, like, I think people like the fact that we're able to, we're authentic humans that are like genuinely checking in with how they're doing feels really good when they're walking in the door. And so, yeah, it's just opened my brain in a way I didn't know, uh, it could, and it's, it's, yeah, very complimentary to being able to work in education.

'cause I just, I don't know what my journey education will be like after this, but it's just so embedded in me. Um. To like be in education, supporting my community, supporting my city. So yeah, whatever that looks like going forward, I'm not sure. But 

yeah, I feel like when I come to Quince, it very much reminds me of the folks like who had that classroom, right?

Or the counselor's office that had the lamps and the thing all the bubbler was going and, right. Yeah. And it feels like, can I hang out? What you miss? I wanna be here all day. Go to class. Right? And then you've created this so beautifully. Um. For the community and I, I absolutely love it here. I know quite a few people.

Like I didn't know this place existed. I know. And I was introduced, so I guess you don't have a sign. Yeah. I mean, who you. Right. But now you have fans. Right. Um, and shout out to Miguel Lovato over at Donelle Kay. Who introduced us, and this is five minutes from Zoe's school. So I've been able to hang out here.

Many, many a times and, and so much so this things like this, small businesses, consulting coffee shops are what I feel like for a lot of people, they feel like they can control, right? Like, I can't control systems, I can't do, but I know that I can come in here and I can turn the lights on and I can make coffee from people.

Mm-hmm. And I can, that's exactly what, yeah. Yeah. I can be in community in these ways. Where it's just us and you can have a flag for Palestina. Mm-hmm. And not have like, well, I don't know if I should have that in there, because what if they could, right? Mm-hmm. We could just kind of be in such a beautiful way.

Right, right, right. And the community really, I feel like it's shown up in these really great ways for Quince. 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. I think the energy's definitely flowing, and I think even like within the context of business, like the way in which we're trying to organize ourselves in like a whole human.

Like, again, like non-capitalist way I think is like a continued learning. Um, but I think, yeah, I just really feel like the importance of being able to like be in relationship and have that be generative and like create things like I think that there could be a whole. Line of, you know, former educators that are like, own like coffee shops and laundromats and like, there's just, there's just something to that that I think that like, it provides creativity.

It's like connection to community. Like it is just a very tangible way and I just feel like, yeah, to have more business owners that are former educators, I think would be cool. 

Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like that's where the, that's where it's going. The question I always ask folks is like, what are you doing now?

And quite a few people, some folks are still in, um, like a youth serving organizations like a Girls Inc. Or YMCA, but quite a few folks specifically black women are like, nah. I'm doing consulting, I'm selling feed pics. I'm not 

pic put them. They're not you. If you think, okay, I see you. I'm just saying, but there is 

this like I can't go back especially, 'cause if you think about it, no matter what industry, if you look across the board at jobs that people like, for myself, I look across the themes, I'm like, oh.

It's not me. Yeah. Right, right. And so then we have to figure out like, okay, if it's not me, and if I go and apply somewhere else, I know it's gonna happen either month one or more month 17 or week two. 

Yeah, right. 

Then it's like this, okay, let me get real about what I need to do to take care of myself.

Mm-hmm. Right. Um, next question. So you talk about being from a family educators, shout out to Marie Greenwood. Are there black educators that you would like to shout out on the show? 

Yeah, I mean, so Marie Greenwood, she's, yeah, so Marie l Greenwood, she, yeah. First black teacher, first black tenure teacher in Denver.

There's a school named after Montebello, um, Marie Greenwood Elementary. Um, so she's obviously icon status. Um, I have a lot. Yeah. So my cousins, um, Morgan and Lisa. Um, my aunt was an admin Ida, um, Kate. She's a amazing educator. Yeah, I think that that's it. I mean. Uh, Juanita and Victoria. My, my two, my mom's two, two best friends.

I think that they were all very inspiring. Yeah. It's just very matter of fact that like, education is it and yeah, we're just gonna do our best for our city to, for our community. And, um, the fact that, like I grew up in East Denver and the fact that the coffee shop is here also feels like on purpose. Sure.

So. Sure. 

So we're gonna have a q and A with the audience, but I have one more question to ask you. Sure. Yeah. For you, what does it mean to be well. 

Yeah, so I had mentioned before nervous system works, somatics mindfulness is all really, really important to me. Um, early 2020, I went on a 10 day silent meditation retreat and it like totally changed my whole orientation to existing.

Um, at a certain point your thoughts just stopped. Like it, they just stopped. And so it kind of put things into perspective for me. Um, and I feel like I try to move at that pace as much as I can. Where like whatever's happening right now in my immediate experience is what is the most important. And so I try to just make like adjustments throughout the day, um, to support that experience.

So like wearing comfortable clothes or making sure that I'm drinking water, like having a warm drink or like, you know, stretching. It feels like, you know, when there's pent up emotion in your body, it feels like plaque in your body. And so just like taking a gentle stretch or being in good company. And I think that like.

Those ways in which I'm like constantly just trying to like, make these adjustments to just make a little bit more space in my body so I can do what I have to do today is I think what being well, um, means to me in an embodied way. 

Thank you. Dr. Sean Genwright was on the show for season five, episode one, and I'm pointing because, uh, Stacy Taylor, Brandon was my co-host on that episode, and we asked that same question and Dr.

Genwright talked about. The micro diet of wellness and how we, just, how you describe, it's not, it is the 10 day silent retreat, but it also is stretching. Mm-hmm. Two minutes here. Mm-hmm. Instead of getting pulling up in front of your home, jumping out the car and running. Yeah. Right. That's us getting the hurry up, grab the keys and running and jumping.

It's chewing our food. Taking time is drinking our water. These are all the ways that we can. Resist white supremacy culture and its urgency. Totally. Right, and he's, he definitely outlined that, and I love that he said this micro diet of wellness, because we have to be taking that every chance we get, right?

Mm-hmm. I've, I've text and called many of folks and asked like, what you up to today? Laying in my bed. Taking my time being with my pets. Mm-hmm. You know, just enjoying myself because that's what we need. We need to be, be taking every minute that we can. Totally. 

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, we all, everyone has a nervous system.

Like literally everyone has a nervous system, which also means that we like vacillate from regulation dysregulation. If we can like start to also realize what dysregulation feels like in our body. There's a lot of power in that because. There are moments that create a flooded sensation in your body. And if you can learn how to bring yourself back, like that's where that peace exists.

And that's where you can come back to a state where you can make informed decisions. And your brain is not in this like hyper aroused, like lizard mind. And so, um, really, really getting familiar with your nervous system I think is like power that we all can have to be able to navigate all the different moments that we have to experience.

So 

yeah. Thank you. Um, before we, we, we move the questions, can we give it up for Jenna, please?

You come for two questions. If we have folks have questions about Jenna's journey. 

So Jenna, I love the story you tell about your grandmother and the scouts. I mean, we know that she was educated at a time where not many black folks were educated, especially black women. Yes. 

So what do you pull from her as some of the legacy kind of traits that are in your DNA Yeah, right, 

that are embedded in you?

That you have used for your, you know, thought journey? 

Yeah. Oh my gosh, so many. So I just reread, read for the first time, her autobiography. Uh, so I learned a lot about, um, sports and music were really important to her. Um, she liked to be outside and so honestly, like the ways in which she presented gender, her gender was, was like really affirming to me that she just like, was very unapologetic about the fact that she wanted to do stuff that the boys would do.

One thing that. Was interesting. So they wouldn't, they wouldn't not let her graduate from East High School, but at a certain point she was at like the top 10 percentage of her class at East and the guidance counselor pulled her to the, to the office and said, um, you know, what are your plans? Um, but then they saw that she had Negro written on her, her like form.

And they're like, oh, well you're wasting your time anyway. You're gonna be cleaning people's houses. So. Don't even bother, we're not even gonna have this conversation. And she decided that she wanted to take her education into her own hands and she transferred to West High School. Um, which honestly goes to show you that while schools were, um, integrated, like how they were living it out, like depended from school to school.

And so West High School, um, I guess was a lot more. Like they would, they were just a lot more evolved in how they were doing the integration process. Whereas at East, students could only go to school, they couldn't do extracurricular activities, um, and they weren't going to encourage them or help them get into college.

And so. So she transferred to West sophomore year and had a much better experience, but she just like showed those examples of like, this is mine, I'm gonna do it. Mm-hmm. Like, you're not gonna tell me what, what to do. And then she ended up going to what's now UNC, uh, Colorado Teacher's College. Um, and then, um, yeah, I mean, she just dealt with it.

I think my grandma just like. Had a very detached orientation to life. And so, and I, again, I talk about how she's a Sagittarius, it's like, this is her party. We're just like here as guests. So 

it's like my grandmother. Yeah. So I think that like 

the, like the amount of like exuberance that she had when she told stories about like, such like mundane things like playing a sports game or like, you know, like playing in the mud like and or you know.

What she said, prejudice in her book a lot prejudice that she was experiencing. Um, I think she just had like a kind of good, like spacious, um, detached way of things, which I think helped her in her, um, resilience and getting, attaining her education and getting to where she was because she was kind of having fun along the way.

Mm. So thank you. Yeah. 

You have spoken brilliantly to the many iterations of you, what would you tell your younger self? Woo, 

man. Wow. Wow. Joy just kicked the hair. This I know. Okay.

Um, I think I would say the most challenging part of my experience growing up was just isolation. Like I felt different for so many reasons, and I think I. I feel really, really happy and, um, affirmed in my blackness because I was raised by black women that were so, like there's a term in teaching that I learned that's like the warm demander.

Yes. And I feel like black women just embody that so much that it's like, I'm gonna hold high expectations for you, but I'm gonna hold you so gently. And so like, I truly owe everything to the black woman that raised me. Um, that I feel so like loved and like important. And also there's just like stuff around.

My gender expression and my sexuality that I just like, needed additional language to be able to figure out. And so I had a lot of time where I just felt really, really alone. Again, like my proximity to whiteness. Like I had a lot of friends, but like also they didn't look like me. And so, um, I think I would just tell my younger self that like, you're gonna have community that can see you and hold you in your full self.

Um, and like your definition of success is not measured by anything around you. So I think that for sure. 

Thank you. Alright folks, this concludes our episode of the Exit interview, a podcast for black educators. One more time for Jenna, please.

Um, I need you all to come back and support the coffee shop. I need to get a tea. Go drink, get a to go drink, get something. Um, make sure that you're supporting them. You tell people about Quince, they're doing great things here. We wanna make sure that we drive by and it's going to be here, right? Um, so yes.

So enjoy yourself. Thank you all for coming and tune in this episode. We'll drop on our podcast on Spotify, um, early April. So if you're signed up for the newsletter. You'll see that it'll drop in April. If you follow me, those of us who know I live on LinkedIn and on LinkedIn, I'll put that out on LinkedIn.

I'll put that out in, um, Instagram, but make sure to follow the newsletter. Um, and so yeah, that's it. Have a great rest of your day. Thank you.