Learning to Relearn with Kwame Sarfo-Mensah

Episode with Kwame Sarfo-Mensah

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: [00:00:00] And she's like, you're right, Kwame. You're a really good teacher. But she doesn't like it when you have teachers who confront her. She doesn't like that. When you're someone that has that kind of personality, and I honestly don't think I, I have that personality. It was something that I had to develop out of necessity.

I like to think I'm more non confrontational, but when you are frustrated like I was, you realize, all right, I got to say something because this is not going in the right direction. So she got off where she needed to get off. I shared my piece. We both cried, we hugged it out, and we're able to finish the rest of the year peacefully.

But I can tell you this, I look back at those five years, And, and I realized, you know what, I expected people to care about this work just as much as I [00:01:00] do. And a lot of my frustration stemmed from the fact that, yeah, people really just didn't care.

Dr. Asia Lyons: In a world where the recruitment of Black educators dominates headlines, one question remains, where are the conversations with folks who are leaving education?

Introducing The Exit Interview, a podcast dedicated to archiving the untold stories of Black folks. We have departed from traditional education spaces. I'm Dr. Asia Lyons, and I'm embarking on a mission alongside my esteemed guests. Together we shed light on the challenges, triumphs, and experiences of black educators aiming to inform and empower communities, invest in understanding the crucial issue of retention and education.

Welcome to the Exit Interview a podcast for black educators. Welcome back to another episode of the Exit Interview, a podcast for black educators with your host. Me, Dr. Asia. Folks, I mean, we've been back to back with some amazing episodes. Today's going to [00:02:00] be no different, but I hope you all are signed in to make sure you're getting all of our newsletters, all of our updates.

We're doing some great things. Today's no different. Kwame's coming from, remind me, Kwame, where are you recording from?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: I am recording from Freetown, Sierra Leone.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, folks. It's a long way from Denver, Colorado. Where are you? Very

d: long way.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, a little bit. It's not walking distance. And so Kwame and I have connected via LinkedIn.

I've seen his work definitely a lot on LinkedIn. He's out in community talking to folks and doing his own work, which he'll probably talk to us about later, but we're going to just jump right in. First of all, thank you for coming on the show.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Yeah. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. So starting us off, you were an educator or you wouldn't have been on the show.

What made you decide that education was for you?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Honestly, education was not something that I was looking at as a career aspiration. Just like a lot of boys growing up, [00:03:00] I wanted to get into sports. I was a sports fanatic, still am to this day. I thought that I would be an NBA player. I thought I would be in the NFL, major league baseball, whatever sports you can name, I thought I was going to be that guy.

And then once you get to high school and you realize that your metrics just don't match up, ain't not going to make that dream, then you have to pivot to something else. So for me, when I went to college. I actually ended up being a math major. So that's what I studied during my undergrad at Temple University in Philadelphia.

And it was during my undergrad that I started to work with children. So it started my freshman year. I was walking on campus. And I bumped into an upperclassman, and I can remember her name. Her name is Tamara Tuck Anderson. Tuck's her nickname at that time. And she told me about this mentoring program she [00:04:00] was running in her dorm.

And she's like, Hey, you know, I'm doing this mentor program. Would you like to be a part of it? We could use some volunteers. You know, I'm 18 years old, eyes wide open, I'm super green, I'm like, sure, I got nothing else to do. So I end up going to this program and I get linked up with a middle school student who ended up being my mentee for the semester.

And it was at that point where I realized. I like doing this. I like being able to be a role model for young people. So then going into my sophomore year, I looked for a work study job where I could continue to do more of that work. So there was a YMCA that was walking distance from the main campus. So I started to go there and devote my time to helping kids out there for that school program.

And I was helping them with [00:05:00] homework. I was leading activities. And I would just do this a couple days out the week after my classes were done. And it was cool. Got a little bit of pocket money to get pizza, do whatever. Of course. Of course. All college students do. And then, ultimately, that whiff from Doing that a few days a week to now, doing summer camps over there, counseling, and I would eventually end up being a direct employee for this YMCA.

So this is something that I would do for the remainder of my undergrad until I graduated. And then finally, I came to a crossroads. I'm thinking to myself, what career path am I going to take?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Wait a minute. Hold on. You did all this volunteering. You did all this work with kids and you, you still had to ask yourself the question, what is it that I want to do?

And that's fair, right? I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I wrote down Tamra Tucker Anderson's, Tucks Anderson's name and say like, [00:06:00] hey, she started this seed off. I want to know where this goes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: No, she definitely did. Now, at the time, I didn't think that teaching was going to be the thing that I would do, but I knew by the time I graduated that I would be doing something that was going to involve working with kids.

I knew that.

d: Mm

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: hmm. I loved it that much, but I also knew that I loved math as well. So then I thought, okay, I got a math degree. I love working with kids. How can we bring those worlds together? So that's how becoming a math teacher became the thing to do. So at that point, I knew that I was going to be a teacher.

So I decided to do this program called Education Works. It's like the school based equivalent to City Year. Okay. It's a former AmeriCorps program where you do a year or two working in the school, get a government stipend, You're doing socialized recess, you're helping out [00:07:00] teachers, you're running after school programs, you're working all these hours only to get an education award when it's all said and done.

The education award actually helped to fund my first year of grad school. So I would end up going to grad school to get my master's. but also to get my initial teacher certification in Pennsylvania. So that's around 2007, 2008 ish. So I end up doing that program and, uh, would graduate from there. And then I started teaching in Philadelphia.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Hold on, let me ask you a quick question. So, well, you started off with dreams of being an athlete. But then became a math major. When you think about this journey, and you're talking to your family, maybe your friends, and you're saying, I'm going to major in math, and then all of a sudden I'm going to become a teacher.

What was that conversation like? Were people super supportive of you? Kind of shocked? Did they always see that [00:08:00] in you growing up? What was that like?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: I got a lot of support from my mother and obviously my siblings. My father, not as much because you're coming from a family that is West African. So both my parents grew up in Ghana, born and raised.

Teaching was not something that was a first option. Usually, they look at you to be a doctor, they want you to be an engineer, they want you to get into finance or business. So you tell your father, Oh, you want to be a teacher? They're like, Oh, you can't earn money from this work. Why don't you just become this or that?

You have a math degree. You can get more money doing this. So he's thinking about it from a monetary standpoint, whereas for me, I'm looking at the passion that I have for it and how it makes me feel. And that usually doesn't align in most African families.

d: Mm hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: But for the most part, I did get the support from my family [00:09:00] members, and they were like, you know, that's what's up.

Go with it. Go with it.

Dr. Asia Lyons: That's awesome. Sorry to cut you off. Go ahead and continue. So you come out. Go ahead.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Yeah. So I get my cert. This is around 2010. I started teaching in Philadelphia. So those first four years I was working in a couple of different charter schools as a sixth grade math teacher. And it was amazing.

I actually have a story about my first year, and this is something that I think about all the time. So with the first year, I had done two years in this school as a teaching assistant, had worked my way up, earned the respect of my colleagues, and I finally get my chance to teach. And what was interesting about this year was that I had gone that whole year without getting an observation or an evaluation.

Now, typically, not for those who are listening who have never been in the classroom, you get a few observations and [00:10:00] evaluations throughout the course of the year to track your progress, your performance, how you're doing. Especially as a new teacher. Right. So just to give context, I was at a charter school.

So there had been a, quite a bit of turnover during the three years I was there. But this year in particular, I didn't get my first observation or official evaluation until April, that school year. Now by this time, we had finished state testing, so we're kind of in that chill mode where, alright, we've done all the work we need to do, now we can just roll into the sunset, we can relax a little bit, pressure's down.

Now I have a board member come into my classroom. She's a retired principal, had never been in my classroom before, doesn't even know my name, doesn't even know my students. She conducts my observation. Was there for 30 minutes, sitting in the back, watching [00:11:00] me do my lesson with the kids. She's taking low inference notes.

She leaves the room. Don't hear anything about her. Now, April, I end up getting a contract to come back and teach for another year. So contract renewal. So I'm thinking I'm good. Had a great first year. Everything is good. Fast forward to June, school year and I'm feeling good. All right. First year, All done.

I made it. I go back to my home state of Connecticut to see family. And I would say about a week into that trip, I get a call from the principal saying that he needed to see me. in his office. Am I able to come back a little early to see him? Because it's urgent. So my with my family, I go to the school. I see the principal.

I get into the room. And as soon as I sit down, he pushes [00:12:00] the pink slip towards me. Oh, wow. And he had this guilty look, like, Man, Kwame, I'm sorry, but we're gonna have to rescind your contract. And I'm just in shock. I'm like, The heck? What's going on? Just two months ago, you're singing my praises. Matter of fact, all year, all people can say was, Man, Kwame's doing a great job.

I was leading school wide events, I was doing math carnivals that involved the entire school. I had done a whole silent hallways policy to help create better behavior in the hallways. These were things that I did in year one.

d: Yeah,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: yeah. So I was contributing beyond my sixth grade class. and getting recognized for it.

So to go from that to now, I'm being let go because of test scores. I'm like, how do we get here? [00:13:00] Because not once did I get any kind of warning letter, right? Not once did I have somebody come in checking in on me. I was really by myself. I didn't have like a content level partner. The way things were structured, I was pretty much my own team.

And I would reach out to my principal, my vice principal with my lesson plan saying, Hey, can you just check my lesson plans, see if everything's good. I'm looking for the guidance. They're like, Oh, it's all good, Kwame. They didn't even look at the lesson plans. And I was sending them every single week. I was spending all my weekends trying to do these lesson plans only to get no feedback.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I think it's interesting that you talk about there's a lot of things we could talk about in this conversation. It's a lot. Yeah, the first is Obviously, people come into your classroom at the last minute, school board folks, and critiquing your work, [00:14:00] not knowing you, having no relationship with you, or probably the students either.

Then we're talking about, I've never experienced this, but I know that people experience turning in lesson plans every week, and thinking they're going to be reviewed, so being very cautious to make sure that they look good, especially in your first couple years. And to know that you're saying that obviously they weren't looked at because if somebody thought something was wrong, they would have come in and you're thinking everything is good.

The next thing I want to talk about is the ambiguous principal email. I know that there are so many of us in education who hate to see that ambiguous Friday afternoon on vacation email that does not help us in any way, shape or form feel good about that conversation. It doesn't tell us why. Can you come in and chat when, you know, on Monday and things like that.

And I wonder about, is it something where they don't want to put in the email something that HR could [00:15:00] possibly get them in trouble for? I wonder if it's a power thing, but that, if I could talk to every principal listening to this podcast and say, please stop doing that. that can we chat after school quickly?

If you're not going to tell people what it is, let them know if it's good or bad or something, because that really can impact people's vacations, like you're talking about, their weekends, even just the rest of the day. And I don't know why folks do that, but that has to stop in education and continue.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: But that was just totally devastating.

But to give even more context, My first couple years at this school, we had, first off, a different principal. His name was Dr. Salome Thomas El. You probably know him. He was my principal during my first year. Best principal I've ever worked for. He was supportive. He looked out for me, told me what it meant to be professional, being a Black male educator, really gave me that [00:16:00] confidence.

And he was the one who said, listen Kwame, if you just take these steps, and you are starring your role as a fellow, you're going to be in that teacher's seat within three years. He told me that. He guaranteed that to me. And I really took heed to his advice. Like I was the first one there, last one gone. I was put in 45, 50 plus hour weeks because I wanted to show how dedicated I was.

And that was the kind of mindset I carried throughout my time there. So getting into that third year, first year as a lead teacher. I'm thinking, okay, I'm doing the work. I'm doing it. So to go from that kind of support system where you had a principal like that, you also had an instructional coach and assistant principal who would come to your class every week to do grade level meetings or PLCs, right?

Yes. It was [00:17:00] very structured. Like they really made sure they held you accountable. So to go from that structure to not having that at all in year three, I'm like, okay, what do I do? Now, thankfully, I had some colleagues who would reach out and extend a helping hand, but they got their own workload they have to deal with.

d: So there

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: was only so much they could do in the time that they had that was free. So I was really, uh, just trying to stay afloat in water. It really felt like that.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, that has to be really tough. And I find it interesting. Sounds like you and I were starting our teaching career around the same time, in the 2000s.

Yeah. It sounds like you ended up not being at that school anymore, but that wasn't your last year teaching. So what was your career path after that?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: So after that first year, I ended up being let go. So I spent the entire summer applying to different schools, scrambling to get a job because [00:18:00] now I'm living as a bachelor.

I got rent to pay at my apartment. I didn't have any backup plan. So I had to get that new job. So I was going to different interviews in 90 plus degree weather on hot summer days of Philly.

Humid. What? Humid. So I eventually got a job at African Center School, which I ended up staying, um, for I think three years before moving to Boston. And those were three really good years over there.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Tell us about this African Center School. I want to hear about

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: this. So it doesn't exist anymore. It closed down some years ago due to some mismanagement.

They got into some stuff. And some of this stuff was happening while I was at that school, which is disappointing. So this is a school that has a freedom school model. So Philadelphia has a history [00:19:00] of having freedom schools where the focus is on African centered education, self determination, black folks.

So that was the kind of philosophy that I was going into with this school. So it was an all black staff. I think we only had one or two staff members who are white. Air Biles was black, which was beautiful. And the kids would come to school with kente ties. navy blue sweaters and khaki pants. Like they were looking real fly.

And it was great to be in that setting because I felt like I was in my element. I felt like I could be more of myself coming from parents who are directly from the continent. It just felt like a good fit for me. And I was really able to learn how to be a teacher during those times. And I think having the first year that I had at the previous [00:20:00] school really helped me to navigate those next three years because I learned that, listen, you can't trust nobody.

You can't just feel like you're safe.

d: You're

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: expendable. You could be let go at any moment. So it really got me focused on making sure that my documentation was straight. Making sure that crossing my T's and dotting my I's when it comes to that type of stuff and I was just doing what I need to do. So I really started to pay more attention to the politics and I was able to see how that had an impact on the school culture and other aspects of the school.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I feel like it's unfortunate that you had to I mean, we all need to make sure that we dot our I's and cross our T's, right? And that's totally fair and it makes sense to protect yourself and whatever. But the fact that you had to come from this place of harm to have that experience versus someone saying as a [00:21:00] mentor to you, like, Hey, make sure you do this, that, that.

You had to experience being fired from your job and learn that hard lesson and trudge through the summer in Philly in a tie and a suit to interview, then to come to this school to say, like, I need to make sure that I protect myself. And that's trauma, really, right? It's just so unfortunate that we have to figure out these pieces in that way, and I'm sorry to hear that that happened.

And I think about this freedom school model and the school that you're talking about, it reminds me of an episode of Integrated Schools podcast where Sharif Yelmeki was on that podcast. Oh, Sharif, that's my guy. Yeah, Sharif talked about in his childhood going to, I don't know if it's the same school, I have no idea.

But going to a school that, the way you're speaking about it, right, it's African centered freedom school model and what he learned, and the way he expanded his thinking. And I know that so many times people wish that they had a school like that for their children, but also for themselves. I had a guest on some time ago, Dr.

William [00:22:00] Smith, who talked about if Black folks who are in education are still wanting to teach. What they should do is consider going to a place that totes Black Excellence and Black Love and Resilience, a school model like that. And I've talked about this so many times that I haven't in Colorado, and this should not be surprising to anyone.

But in Colorado, I've yet to see it. I've seen people who want that to be the case and have fought for that, but that has not happened. So to know that at least at one time that this existed in Philadelphia is hopeful, but I am sad to hear that it closed down due to mismanagement. You left Philly and you went to Boston.

That's a lot of moving. What happened next in your career?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Yeah. So the move from Philly to Boston happened because My girlfriend at the time, now my wife, she wanted to be closer to home. I had been in Philly for the greater part of 14 years at that point, [00:23:00] and I wanted to marry this woman. So I said, all right, let's do it.

So we end up going to Boston in 2014, and we move into her childhood home where her parents, my in laws, still live. And we ended up spending that year there while also planning a wedding and saving for our house. Oh, wow. We did that simultaneously during that year. And I'm in a school district, so this is my first time working in a school district.

Up until that point, I'd only been working in charter schools. So, now I'm starting to learn the difference between being in a district That's unionized versus being in charter schools where you don't have that safety valve.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. You're pretty

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: much vulnerable to any type of termination. So now I'm coming to a space where, oh, they already have a scope of sequence ready for me.[00:24:00]

They have textbooks. They have resources. Prior to coming here, I had to create my own scope of sequence during the summer. I had to do my research and make sure that I was prepared with my curriculum before that next September. Because there wasn't a school wide plan when it came to what I was teaching the math.

So I had to create that every year. So to be now in a position where they already had that scripted. It was foreign territory for me because I'm someone that likes to be innovative. I like to use complementary materials. I like to supplement. I'm a supplementer. That's just who I am. That's how I've been teaching.

So to be in a space where you're creating your own worksheets, you have archives of projects repurpose for this new class. [00:25:00] It looks foreign to people. I can even tell you a story of when during that first year where we're supposed to be preparing for this benchmark assessment and my math coach at the time was doing some observations and she noticed that I was barely using the textbook.

that the district has spent a gazillion dollars for us to use. Of course, a gazillion dollars. Yes. But I was still following the scope of sequence with some minor adjustments here and there, right? And we were making great progress. So, tell me why this woman snitches on me to the principal behind my back, and I get called to the principal's office, and principal's telling me, listen, this is what your math coach said, she's worried because you're not using the textbook, so she's not sure if you're even following the plans, and I'm showing all my lesson plans like I'm an open book.

I'm [00:26:00] showing everything. Let her know that everything is good. She's like, all right, so the assessment comes, kids take the assessment, we get the results back, all the kids have grown. So now the same math coach wants to give me five, give me a high five, and my head, I'm cursing her out.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: You know, I'm laughing and doing all this stuff.

I'm like, yeah, now you're gonna leave me alone. Now you can leave me alone. She left me alone. She actually ended up getting fired from that position after that year. So at least I knew, all right, she wasn't even good a job anyway. But yeah, during that time, and I'll fast forward to the juicy part. This is the part that people need to hear.

So I was in this school for five years. I'm at year five now. Matter of fact, those first three years, I'm working to become a permanent teacher in the district. So the first three years are probationary years. Meaning, you can get terminated at any point [00:27:00] during those three years if you're not getting satisfactory evaluations.

If you end up committing any infractions, you're pretty much at the mercy of the district. But once you get past that third year, you're safe. It's like you're tenured, basically, it becomes harder for them to get rid of you. So during these three years, I'm just observing what's going on. I'm seeing a lot of injustice happening.

I'm seeing a disproportionate amount of black and brown kids getting suspended, getting kicked out of class. I'm also seeing the different ways in which certain teachers are being treated compared to others. So I'm noticing little, little things and it's adding to my frustration because I'm like, hold up, I'm sitting here, I'm busting my behind and yet I'm being held accountable for all these things, but like I'm showing up every day.

I'm not missing days at work. [00:28:00] You got people who are purposely coming to work late and they're not being held to the same standard. So, I have this saying which goes like this. The competent overcompensate for the incompetent. So basically, Oh, if you a dope teacher, if you're a teacher that stands on business and you always doing the job, if you're a strong teacher, you're expected to do more.

Because you're strong, you're expected to be on this committee. You're expected to do these extracurricular activities with kids because you're just that good of a teacher. You're committed. So what ends up happening is people see that you're committed and they start to exploit that zeal.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, it's interesting that you're talking about this because this is another thing that Dr.

Smith talked about on his episode, which is we'll just keep going and keep going and keep going. And when he talked about how to [00:29:00] support yourself from experiencing racial battle fatigue, how to take a break, he talked about taking care of self. He didn't say anything about joining a committee, starting a committee, staying super late.

He said, take care of yourself. Go home, pick your battles, eat your fruits and vegetables, be in nature, because that's what happens. You're a great teacher and more and more things are put onto your plate. And it's like, I'll say Black educators especially, and then we'll take it one more level, Black male educators, right?

Because like, okay, there's only so many, so we have one. So let's just keep showing them appreciation by giving them more work, and typically not for any more pay. And so I just had to pause you to say that, and I think it's really interesting also, there's so many of us who go through this tenure process.

And we had this in the district I was in for a long time, I don't know if it's still the case. And people have, feel this need to wait until they're no longer tenured, or no longer, on [00:30:00] probation or probationary before they want to say anything. And that's just so hard, right? Because that whole time that you're waiting.

Understandably so, you're stuffing down the harm that you're seeing that's happening to our students, happening to other educators, happening to yourself, to administrators. So yeah, I know that you're definitely not the only person who've experienced such harm and had to decide like, should I say something?

What if I get fired? I got to take care of my family. Let me just wait, right? And that's so hard for folks to do and understandable that people make that decision to do so.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Yeah. And that was what made it so difficult is that you see these things happening and you're like, nah, this is foul. But then you learn that, well, this particular principal is at this time, the longest tenured principal in the school district.

She'd been at that school for [00:31:00] damn near two decades. She got relations with people at central office. So even if you file a grievance against her, she's going to find a way to get her get back.

Dr. Asia Lyons: So

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: you didn't really have any protection. So they had some people who became indifferent to what was going on because they realized no matter how many grievances you submit to the union, no matter how many times you file a report, she's going to still end up with her job because it's just hard to get rid of people.

You had to do something so outlandish and so egregious that the district has no choice but to let you go, but it never got to that point with her.

Dr. Asia Lyons: She knew

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: that. Yeah,

Dr. Asia Lyons: that power piece, we've seen it here too, where people, we've had folks in the district I was in who had children by, they were principals who had children by [00:32:00] birth.

teachers and they were, the person was married and not to that teacher and instead of figuring out how to let that person go, they just move them up in the district. They've had folks say the n word and they just move into a different school. And when I think of egregious, I can't think of anything that they would consider egregious because it's just been so many examples, especially amongst our white educators, that it's just like, what would they have to be able to do?

Set the school building on fire with children in it before they got fired. And so, yeah, that idea of like, if I do this and I know what's going to happen and then you're talking about this person not getting fired and also you being blacklisted, and that's a real thing too, is that can happen to so many people where they try to go to a different school and they get blacklisted from that district.

And I think that's, again, it's a real thing that people need to talk about more.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Yeah, for sure. And speaking of N word, I think, I don't know if it was the last straw, but it was [00:33:00] definitely a turning point for me. So this is just a regular day. This is probably year four in this school. And I caught wind of a teacher, white teacher, white woman, Old white woman who was using the N word during a grade level meeting.

So I wasn't in this meeting. This is second and third grade meeting. So I taught seventh and eighth grade and I don't know what they were talking about, but for whatever reason, she ended up using the word with the hard ER. Now, of course, the people in that meeting are looking at her like, are you sure you want to continue to say that word?

They look at her all like, nah, this ain't right. She stood on that because she said, well, this was a language that my father was using. So I'm just basically repeating what my father was saying. So she's like, One

Dr. Asia Lyons: of those, [00:34:00] one of those, I'm gonna just share the story exactly how it was. Yeah, mm hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: So basically It ends up getting reported to the principal.

Now, it starts to spread. My grade level partner then shares it with me. Now I'm pissed. Now her and I, we're in the same instructional leadership team. And we're supposed to have a meeting after school. Now, all I'm thinking about is this. I'm gonna say something about this because I know they're gonna bring this up during the meeting.

And of course my colleagues like, nah Kwame, I know you upset, but you got to keep it cool. So, you know, I go in there, they're addressing it. And I'm just, man, this is not, I think I asked a question. I bring it up because they were kind of talking around the issue. So I'm like, is it okay for a teacher to use that kind of language regardless of what the context was for that?

So they're trying to basically white [00:35:00] splain what happened. Mm hmm. And basically just say, Oh, you know, she didn't mean it like that. Blah, blah, blah. Now eventually have a private conversation with the principal to address my concerns. And you know what she told me? She said, yeah, she's wrong, but guess what?

She's about to retire in five months. So we're just gonna sleep this under the rug. She about to retire. So there's no point in penalizing her. She's about to be out of here. So that didn't sit well with me. And it was that moment where I'm just like, you know what? Nah, I don't know how long I'm going to be at the school.

So now year five comes. This is the final year.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I was going to say, you just said that wasn't the last straw. So I need to know what the last straw is because that would have been it for me. So please tell us what was this last straw? The last straw

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: happened. Oh, this story, I've never shared this story before, so this is a first.

So [00:36:00] this is midway through that final year, and one of my student's parents reaches out to me. Now, this is a parent whose children I've taught over the years, so I've taught, you know, a son, and then now the daughter, and she reaches out to me to ask me if I could write a, I guess, a character letter for her, because she was in a custody battle with her youngest son's father.

And I'm thinking to myself, well, this is a parent I know, I've taught two of her children, one of them is in my class currently, and she's not doing too well. She's usually a pretty good student, but you could tell something at home is bothering her that's causing her to dip in her performance. So of course, I'm thinking I'm being a good teacher.

I said, all right, I'll write the letter. I'm not thinking about the father. I'm just thinking about the fact that I know this parent. She's always been a responsive parent. She's always been someone who handles her business and has been [00:37:00] really responsible. So let me write this letter stating that, right?

That's how I know her. That was in December. Fast forward to April, May. Tell me why I get called to the main office. And I receive a subpoena to appear in court. So now my principal's asking me like, Hey, what's going on? I'm like, listen, I don't know. So I explains her how I wrote the letter to support her.

And of course, principal's mad at me. You know, why would you even do that? Like, I didn't know that was going to lead to this. I was just trying to support a parent. I'm thinking I'm doing my job, supporting a parent. But her perspective was, well, by you writing the letter, you're now basically taking sides with her and going against the father.

who has a son at the school. Of course, I wasn't thinking of that. But anyway, [00:38:00] so I tell my principal, listen, I don't want to go to court. I have no reason to go to court. I just wanted to write the statement and just leave it at that and let them handle their business. But the lawyer kept on calling the school saying I had to appear.

If I don't appear, I end up getting in trouble, blah, blah, blah. So eventually my principal says, you should go to the hearing. I didn't even want to go. Now, keep in mind, I don't have any more personal days or sick days. This is like end of year. So if I end up taking any time off from this point on, I lose pay.

So this is the principal who told me, you should just go to the trial. We'll find coverage, do whatever. I said, okay. So I take a half day. I go all the way to the courthouse. I get there, I see the lawyer and my student's parent, the mom, right? The lawyer's giving me a look like, why is he here? Same look [00:39:00] I'm getting from the mother.

Why is he here? So now I have the mother saying, Oh, well, we're surprised to see you. And I'm thinking to myself, why are y'all surprised? I got a subpoena. Your lawyer kept on heading up the school talking about, I need to be here. So I'm here. So then lawyer says, I am so sorry. I made a call to the school telling them that you no longer have to come to the trial.

And I'm like, what? So I asked the lawyer, who did you talk to? And he mentioned our vice principal's name, who was somebody who I had a pretty good relationship with. So I felt really hurt by that. So now I'm sitting here like, okay, I'm here because my principal told me to go. I didn't want to go. So I'm losing pay to go to a trial that I didn't even need to attend.

So I ended up sitting through the trial because I'm [00:40:00] already here and I might as well just be here, right?

d: Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: So I go through it. I get called up to the stand to share whatever I need to share. I go. So on my way out the courthouse. And this was an error on my part. I'm heated. I sent an email to my principal, and I CC'd the vice principal saying, basically like, How's it that y'all didn't tell me that this lawyer called?

The lawyer mentioned your name. And he has no reason to lie about this. Basically they're denying it, saying, uh, that's not true. He never called. And then it turned into, well, if you hadn't done that statement for the parent, you wouldn't be in this situation. Oh, wow. So she took it there in my head, man, no F her, blah, blah, blah.

Okay. That's what we doing. So I get home, I'm [00:41:00] pissed. And of course, my wife, she's been hearing me vent about the principal for a good portion of the year. Cause there have been so many other things that have happened. Like every other day, I got a story.

d: Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: So I tell her what I did and she's like, you know what?

I'm not taking her side, but you don't want to cut off that bridge because you gonna need her. You're about to be out the country. Cause she had just got her job with Peace Corps. So I knew it was going to be my last year. I had already made the announcement to my colleagues. to the principal and she basically said you don't want to end your time at this school like this.

Five years you've put in, you don't want to end it like that. So. You should meet with her in the morning, first thing, before everybody gets here, and have a conversation with her.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, I want to say that when people share stories like this, they often talk about how they went home and talked to somebody.

at home about the [00:42:00] situation. And you just said something really interesting when you said, I talked to my wife about this all the time, and it was something every other day. So many of us go home and vent to our families about these experiences in schools, and I think it's so important that we talk about the impact that Things that happen at our workplace have on our family, right?

We spend, even if it's five minutes a day, for 179 days talking about something at work that was harmful or things like that. That's how many minutes of our day that we don't get back talking about that harm that was caused from the workplace. Right? And our spouses, our children, some of like, are very much open to supporting us and listening to us.

And that's not the point. The point is not that. Yeah, they're there to support us. That's awesome. It is that we have to be dealing with this constantly. Where instead of talking about other things, watching a sports game, taking a [00:43:00] nap, walking your cat, whatever. We're talking about the trauma that we experience in the workplace.

And I feel like that has to be also talked about more of like how many minutes we spend trying to metabolize all the racism or sexism, homophobia, whatever that happens in the workplace with people who aren't even there with us. Right? And then of course, you know, if your wife is experiencing something similar in her workplace, I don't know if she was or not, we're spending that time talking about these things and it shouldn't have to be that way that we spend any minutes talking about the things that we experienced like that, that's traumatic in the workplace.

But we have to, and we do, so I just wanted to acknowledge that, and I want to thank your wife for listening and giving counsel, right? Because that's important that we have people to talk to, but it's still heavy.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Yeah, it's heavy, because I felt like, how you taking her side? But then she told me, listen, I am a supervisor at my job, [00:44:00] and I know how it feels when you have your employees sending you emails.

Nasty emails without even coming to you directly to address the issue. Yeah, she may be wrong here, but guess what? Have you ever had a conversation with her face to face to tell her how you feel or to address issues? And I'm like, I didn't. So she said, you need to have the conversation, but guess what? You got to talk first.

Just get it all out. Tell her how you feel, empty out the barrel, and then once you share your piece, uninterrupted, you do the same for her. Let her share her perspective to get a sense of how she feels about you and how she feels about what's going on. So I did that. We were able to have a good conversation.

I was able to share my frustrations and how I felt, how I felt disrespected, how I [00:45:00] felt like I wasn't being respected for what I was doing. And during that conversation, she used the word, she said, you're the most insubordinate. And I'm thinking to myself, I know what insubordinate means. How can I be insubordinate when I come to school every day and I'm not Whenever you ask us to complete any task, even the tasks that don't make any sense, I complete them for you.

You know my lessons. I submit those lesson plans every single week. You know how I do. You never have to worry about me in the classroom. And she's like, you're right, Kwame. You're a really good teacher. But she doesn't like it when you have teachers who come for her. She doesn't like that. When you're someone that has that kind of personality.

And I honestly don't think I have that personality. It was something that I had to develop out of necessity. I like to think I'm more non [00:46:00] confrontational. But when you are frustrated like I was, you realize, all right, I gotta say something. Because this is not going in the right direction. So she got off where she needed to get off.

I shared my piece. We both cried, we hugged it out, and we're able to finish the rest of the year peacefully. But I can tell you this, I look back at those five years and, and I realize, you know what? I expected people to care about this work just as much as I do. And a lot of my frustration stemmed from the fact that you had people who really just didn't care.

Yeah. Some people who just, they just ain't give a shit about this work. I feel like I'm out here busting my ass, investing time into the school. I'm organizing middle school dances. I'm taking kids to the [00:47:00] movie theater on the weekends. I am coaching, or assistant coaching, an intramural basketball team.

Like, these were things that I was doing on my own dime. Didn't get any extra money for it. Didn't care to get any extra money for it, but I did that. In addition to being an instructional leadership team member. in addition to being on all these other committees. So when you hear someone saying that you're insubordinate, I'm like, how?

All I do is show up for you. I'm the first one in the building, sometimes the last one to leave. How am I insubordinate when you have people that don't even listen to you on your own staff? So that hit me hard. But then I realized, guess what? Our values don't align. She is a manager. She's all about keeping things even keel.

She's not the type that's going to be out and [00:48:00] about building relations with students. She is all about the operations. She's all about let's do the fire drills. Let's make sure the bulletin boards are updated. Let's make sure kids are walking in a straight line. that's what she cared about. It wasn't about being that principal that really wants to engage.

And I know this for a fact because I had one student come up to me, a couple, come up to me and say, you know, Mrs. Sarfamensa, Ms. So and so has been the principal this whole time I've been here. I've been here for nine years. She doesn't even know my name.

d: Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: I've been here for nine years. 10 actually. She doesn't know my name.

When you have a student tell you that and you share that with the principal in confidence and she goes and says, Oh, so are you applying these kids against me? I'm like, no, I'm just sharing what they're telling [00:49:00] me. I'm just the messenger. Now, if you want to talk to them, you can go ahead and talk to them and let them share what they need to share, but I'm not putting any messages into their mind.

So as you can see, over the course of the time, the trust was out the window. Yeah. Sounds like it. I'm not trusting her. She's not trusting me. And there were things that I did that I will admit in retrospect, I probably could have handled some of those situations differently, but in terms of. The sentiment in terms of why it happened, I stand by that.

And I knew that it was going to be my last year there. And it turned out to be the case because once my wife got the job with Peace Corps, I knew I was going to be out the country. So this is July 2019. I'm out the country. June 30th of that year was the last time I was in the classroom as a K 12 teacher.

Haven't been in that capacity since [00:50:00] then.

Dr. Asia Lyons: First of all, that's a heck of a story. I'm We were basically in three different settings, right? This charter school that, it's not like, even before the school you're talking about that was a freedom school center wasn't a good space. Then a freedom school, and then coming to Boston, or going to Boston and being there for those five years.

and collecting all of these stories, right, and impacting students and being in this space and then also experiencing some harm. And it sounds like you're saying maybe even possibly harming other people or at least hurting the feelings of other people in the interim. And, and I love that you said that, like looking back on some of these situations, I could have thought about it differently.

I could have done differently, which is a good thing to do, right? So thinking about, like you said, you're in a different country now. But, the question still remains. Thinking about your time as an educator, what do you think that school districts, charter schools, unions can do to keep Black [00:51:00] educators, and I'm talking teacher or school psychologists, paraprofessionals, what do you think they could do to keep folks, Black folks employed in

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: schools?

I think for one, you need to incentivize them. And honestly, you should incentivize any teacher who decides to do this work because it's hard. But in the case of black teachers, knowing that there is still a dire need for them in the space, particularly black male teachers, I feel like school districts need to do more in terms of providing pathways for them to achieve professional mobility.

Meaning, if I have aspirations of becoming a principal, if I have aspirations of becoming an instructional coach, or maybe even a high district level official, I want to know that that's a reality. I want to know that there is a path for me to do that. I don't want to be stuck [00:52:00] as a dean because I know how to manage.

different students and keep them in check. I don't want to be stuck in the classroom and not have the opportunity to take on a leadership position because my principal's afraid to lose me because I'm the strongest teacher on the staff. Black educators need to feel like they have the ability to move up professionally.

And I think also you need to believe your black teachers. You need to believe your black teachers. Believe them. When they share stories of racial trauma, when they share stories of harm, acknowledge the stories. Don't make excuses for the people who are committing the harm. Acknowledge the stories. That's a big thing for me.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard friends of mine share similar stories to the one I'm sharing with you, only for someone like a principal to just brush it off, [00:53:00] or to get even more irate at them for sharing the story.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, you know what? When you talked about the story about the n word and the teacher and the way that the principal responded, the first thing I thought about was racial gaslighting, right?

The racial gaslighting sounds like They'll be retired at the end of this year. It sounds like, well, they have a Black son. It sounds like, well, if you wouldn't have done this, then she wouldn't have said that, right? And, or the defensiveness. There's so many examples of racial gaslighting that you've talked about today that we didn't have time to get into, but yeah.

This whole idea of it coming back to us. Well, it's your fault. You should have done this. Or, you know, dismissing. All of that counts. And I don't think that enough Black folks, or folks of color, period, have that language and know what racial gaslighting is and what it looks like. Because if they did have that and they were using that and they were thinking about [00:54:00] how to push up against what they're being told using this language of racial gaslighting, I think that many folks who feel powerless would feel like they have more power.

Just simply having language for their experience.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Exactly.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. I want to come back to break and ask you some more questions because we have a lot more to dig into. Yeah. So when we get back, we'll ask my favorite set of questions. All right. We'll be back. Hey there, beautiful people. It's me, Dr. Asia. Before we dive back into our conversation, I have something exciting to share with you.

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How do you become a part of this amazing community? It's easy. Go to xainterviewpodcast. com or check out the link in this episode's show notes. Now let's get back to the conversation. All right, welcome back, folks, to the Exit Interview, a podcast for Black educators. We're on to my favorite part of the show, part two, where I get to ask, first of all, do you have a Black teacher that you want to shout out on our show today?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: You know what? I'm going to switch it up. Yes. Okay. I usually say the same Black teacher every time, but I'm going to shout out my guy. His name is Nate Durant. He is now the head of school at a charter school in Delaware. Okay. [00:56:00] Nate and I came up together at that first school I mentioned. We were both teaching fellows, and Nate was somebody who was always positive, always motivated.

I didn't foresee him becoming an administrator, but you knew that he was going to be a winner somehow in life. So to see him evolve from where we started. To become a Ted speaker, to end up getting a master's degree, working his way up the ranks from a science teacher to eventually becoming a head of school.

I didn't see that type of trajectory. I knew it was going to be a teacher, but to see him doing the work that he's doing is just inspiring. It lets me know that. We come from the same cloth and you always want to see people who you came into the game with win. [00:57:00] And he's one of those guys who is winning in a big way.

So shout out to Nate.

Dr. Asia Lyons: That's awesome. And I'll be sure to tag him when we put this out there on LinkedIn and Instagram. So hopefully you can hear it. The next question is, What are you doing? So you're in Sierra Leone. You're not teaching anymore. What are you up to? Because you're a

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: long way from the U. S.

Yeah, so it's funny. I think this is something that's evolved over the past five years. So when I left the United States in 2019, my initial plan was to continue my teaching career at an international school. So I tried to apply for different jobs. only to not get those positions. And the international school game is very different.

Like the politics is real. And if you're not really aware of how to navigate that, you're not going to be able to get your foot in the door. So that's what I experienced [00:58:00] at that time. Cause I didn't know anything about international schools. So in frustration, I was like, all right, this isn't working out.

So what can I do? So I started podcasting like you. Started my podcast journey in 2019. Started my podcast called Identity Talk for Educators Live, and at this point, we're approaching close to 200 episodes.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Congratulations.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Say

Dr. Asia Lyons: the

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: name

Dr. Asia Lyons: of it

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: one more time. Identity Talk for, numeral four, Educators Live.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Love it.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Yes. So that is what started for me. It gave me a chance to learn about different school systems to learn about the stories of different educators who have gone through their own trials and tribulations, but also learned about what inspired them to want to do this work. And what was interesting is as I was doing these interviews, I was learning so much about different racial [00:59:00] backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds.

And I really started to understand the full spectrum of identity. and how it shows up in the education sector from a teacher context. And funny enough, this is what inspired me to even want to write my latest book, Learn to Relearn. So I had written two books prior to that, which I self published, but Learn to Relearn is going to be the first one that's going to be released through a major publisher, Rutledge.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Oh, and I love Rutledge. Rutledge wrote or published Bell Hooks books, right? Yep. Teaching to transgress. My

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: favorite. Yeah. Yeah. All about love. All those. So yeah. Congratulations. Yeah. Matter of fact, that's so funny. I got it right here. So that is my

Dr. Asia Lyons: teaching to transgress is my favorite book of hers. Hands down.

And then killing rage. Ending racism is my second favorite.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: All right. All right. All right. That's what's up.

Dr. Asia Lyons: [01:00:00] Yeah. Well, go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Oh, yeah. So, the podcast really started for me because I was just depressed. I was away from home. First time out of the classroom in 15 years. First time not starting a school year with a new class.

So, Everything was different.

d: I was in

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: foreign territory, and I needed to find a way to make use of my time, and I don't know how to sit still. I have to be doing something. So the podcasting happened, and then eventually I realized, you know what? Podcasting's a great networking tool. So with each guest, I was able to build a relationship with that guest and tell them a little bit about my story.

So then that guest would then connect me with other guests, and And then as time went on, I started to build a whole network of international educators who I still connect with to this day, and I've been able to do virtual [01:01:00] conferences where I've had these same past guests be presenters. I've had these same guests recommend me to consult and do workshops in different schools.

And funny enough, a huge reason why I was able to get my publishing deal, this most recent one, was because people saw the podcast. And they were like, Oh, you could write a book about what you're doing. You could write a book that connects these stories that you're sharing with people. And here's the dope part is this podcast.

It was this podcast that I did where I was able to sit, well, not sit on a panel, moderate a panel that has Zoretta Hammond.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Nice.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: The same woman whose book I was reading back in my last school. We're reading Culturally Responsive Teaching in the Brain.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yes, and if, for those who don't know that book, Culturally Responsive [01:02:00] Teaching in the Brain, I remember when it came out.

People were going bananas, including myself, over that book. So if you haven't read it, Culturally Responsive Teaching in the Brain by Zoraida Hammond is a must read for educators and non educators too, actually.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: Yeah, not just educators. Like, even if you're a non educator, you could benefit from reading the book.

But to me, Zoraida Hammond, to be able to interview Goldie Muhammad, which then led to me meeting a lot of silly Ruiz, definitely a lot of silly Ruiz, who wrote the forward for the book. Yes.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: I mean, you couldn't write a better script than that. And I think what it really taught me was the fact that, okay, you might not be able to get into these schools, but guess what?

You got some skillsets that you can leverage. You got some things that you're doing right now that are monetizable. You just got to figure out how to market yourself. You got to figure out how to stand out. You have to figure out how to [01:03:00] connect with people because when you're in this education space, You don't see yourself as a brand.

We come in with that employee mentality, that plantation mentality. You work in a district. All right. You want to get these extra ends. All right, go ahead and get you a post master's degree. Go take these professional development courses, go attend these conferences to get enough professional development credits to move up to the next level of your certification.

And typically when you have to do those things, you're going further in debt and you're spending money that you don't even have because you know you don't get paid enough. So you're going through that cycle to move up the ladder, moving up the steps in your district. only to hit a ceiling and not be able to get paid any more than what you should get.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I got to stop you there because that is exactly right. And folks who listen to this podcast know that I'm an [01:04:00] entrepreneur. I support Black educator wellness and do lots of other things, but specifically to support Black educators and their well being. And you're exactly right about that. I don't think that folks understand, Black educators understand the value they can bring the broader community.

because we're so focused on moving up the ladder or across the pay scale, right? And we're also told that this is the way to go. The next step is dean. The next step is principal. And so it's not until for a lot of us, we're in a place where we can't find a job. Where we've been rejected from a situation that we say like, okay, let me back up and think about something different.

But a lot of us would love to retire in education in some capacity and never think about being the speaker that's providing people the credits for the professional development. We never think about the podcast or the book, we're just reading the book. We watch the panel and we never imagine ourselves on the other side [01:05:00] of that.

And I think it's time for us as educators and you don't have to quit your job to do this, but it's time for us to start rethinking what our capacity is, what our capabilities are as educators, as Black folks, because it's not impossible, right? But we give so much energy to everything else and everyone else and all the extras that we don't have time to sit and think about what we want to do and then act on it.

That's the part, right? Yeah, you going down a whole different road with this podcast that we could talk about forever, but I'm going to pause you because yeah, that's a whole different conversation, but I do, I'm glad you said this. People who know Zaretta Hammond or Gaudi Mohamed, Bettina Love, folks like that, and say like, I could never do that.

Yeah, you can never do it if you say you can never do it. If that's what you choose to come out your mouth, in my mind, it starts with, you gotta believe that that's something that you could possibly do and be open to the idea. Even if you have no [01:06:00] idea how to do that. But yeah, I'm gonna pause you because that's a whole different podcast for a whole different time.

No, that's a lot. It is. It is. It is a lot. People who want to get in contact with you, who want you to be on their panels, who want you to keynote, how can they find you? How can they connect with you?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: So you can find me at my main company website, identity talk for educators. com over there. You'll find all my social media handles.

You'll see past articles, my PD services and offerings. Everything is on that website. Also the podcast as well. And you can find me on LinkedIn, Kwame Sarfamansa. I'm Googleable. Google me. You'll see me at this point, my digital footprint speaks for itself. Yeah, let's connect.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Good enough. Last question.

What's been bringing you joy these days?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah: What's been bringing me joy? My family. My [01:07:00] wife. My two sons. They really bring me joy these days.

Dr. Asia Lyons: All right, folks. Simple enough. Family. Make sure to find Kwame. Look on his website. Identity Talk for Educators. He's a great resource. He does live on LinkedIn. And I know this because I also live on LinkedIn.

He is so So make sure that you go hit him up, talk to him, follow his podcast, look at some of his lives. And connect and yeah, we'll see you on the next episode. Peace.

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