Lessons In Liberation with Sarah Graham

Untitled project from SquadCast

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: [00:00:00] Pst, pst, pst

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: right, welcome back to The Exit Interview, a podcast for Black educators, with your host, me, Dr. Asia. You know, Sarah and I, we're laughing because, folks, we already recorded it. 23 minutes of this episode without pushing the record button. I don't know how that happened And we're gonna come from a place of joy and laughter about this as we sit cuz we were saying Should we start over what we're gonna do and she's like, yeah, let's do it So we're gonna start over again, and we're gonna give it the same amount of juice

As we did when we first imaginary recorded it Okay, so y'all gonna have to stick with us as we start over again And it was good too and i'm gonna i'm gonna we're gonna just we're just gonna do it. So All right, folks, here we go. Hey sarah, welcome back to your real episode

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: huh

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: [00:01:00] I'm, so glad you're on our episode.

Like I said before, um met on linkedin Ran into each other at an event here in Denver and said like, yeah, let's connect. We sat down at Quint's coffee house. Shout out to Quint and the folks over there, Jenna and Kate. We love you. And now we're here on the, on the episode. So, um, yeah, again, tell us, tell us your education journey.

Start with your sister. Cause she'll love this. How'd you become an educator? What's your story?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: I am Sarah Graham. I am the founder of Lessons in Liberations, a structural design company, uh, creating curriculum that uplifts queer and marginalized voices. And thank you for having me again, Asia.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yes.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: You know, it's never too late to start again. You know, that's, that was the theme from last week in my life.

That it's never too late to start again.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Amen. Amen.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: we go. [00:02:00] Starting again, but my education journey, uh, began in the womb. Uh, I've always known I wanted to be a teacher. I came out telling people what to do. No, but I did come out always. loving education. And actually, I think that was probably instilled from my mother. I talked about her, um, a couple of different interviews where I talk about just like the, um, the value of reading and learning that she placed on on the whole household, the whole community. There was never a doubt that you were going to college. You know, like some people like actually have to talk about like, What they're doing after high school was just like, I don't know, a value set that was ingrained that we were, we were going to go to college.

Like,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Same.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: And we all did. There wasn't a single one of us who hasn't gone to college. Um, and some, some siblings have like multiple degrees, you know. Um, so, I've always wanted to be a teacher. I've always loved [00:03:00] education. And my first teaching experience was playing in school with my little sister. And I would create the worksheets and I would take my ruler and line up all the math problems and numbers just right. And like, spend all this time on it, and then by the time I was done, she'd be off playing something new and different, and she'd be done with school. But I'd save those worksheets, and I'd keep them in the folder, uh, and make them do, uh, make her do them later, and, uh, she told me actually, because I told her this story when I got older, this was in the past, like, year or two, that she hated playing school with me. And I was like, what? How do you hate playing school? Like, that was my favorite game. And she said, you used to always make me play those or finish those worksheets. And I was like, yeah, those, I worked hard on them. So, um, it really is a lesson in education that if students aren't engaged, they're not going to be present and they're not going to learn.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: no matter how good [00:04:00] the worksheet is, because, you know, I made good worksheets back then. I'm still making amazing, phenomenal, innovative worksheets now.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: I love that. I love that.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: so that was the very, very beginning, uh, but the formal, uh, education started at UNC Greeley, the University of Northern Colorado in Greeley, Colorado. And, uh, I went to school for a special education degree and, um, just really fell in love with Helping students succeed at their level, you know, and that is the crux of, um, special education.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah. And you mentioned in your first pre interview, we'll just call it that, in the pre interview that you definitely Taught and what would we consider for many people untraditional setting or settings? And actually we're seeking out those types of settings based on your own [00:05:00] Way of showing up as a child.

Tell us about that, please

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah. So my education career, um, or my teaching career really started when I started working in group homes and day treatment centers for students with emotional behavior needs. And I just really fell in love with it because I was a really stubborn child. My mom used to always say, you know, Sarah gonna do what Sarah wants to do. Um, and I was actually like, those were the words that she said when I came out to her. She's like, well, you're always going to do what you want to do. So do it. So,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Might as well I love that shout out to Lois shout out to you

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Mommy Lois. Um, so I fell in love with kids who had that same sentiment. Like I'm going to do what I want to do. And you know, a lot of it was like this trauma response and those intricate parts of it. But it's also, I wonder, I really wonder, like, if you were to look at some of those students now [00:06:00] and, like, talk about grit and talk about determination, like, what they went through and where they are now, be really interesting.

But I, I really loved, um, being able to take the structure of education and adapt it for students needs based off of where they were at in their educational career, in their emotional body, um, in their developmental body. And I, taught at a day treatment center as my first teaching job. Um, and it was, two classrooms, a two classroom building.

And there were some offices where the therapist worked and there was a lower classroom and there was an upper classroom. And I taught the lower classroom, which was probably about 10 students in grades, three through eight. And, uh, we were just in there, just thugging it out together with, with a teacher assistant. Um, and they would have therapy in the middle of the day. And, you know, sometimes the school day would be disrupted and would be thrown around. And by the end of the day, we put back together and [00:07:00] apologies would be mended. And, uh, practicing the skills of emotional regulation

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah,

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: that we just, I spent hours on creating, it was destroyed and, uh, you know, students had to forgive and work together to create anew and, um, I really was able to to adapt and adjust the curriculum for students needs based off of their preference. And really based off this idea of the window mirror, right? It's like, how are, how are we representing ourselves in the curriculum? And then how are we exposing students to, to new ideas and new thoughts and new voices, um, and narratives? And the first time I was able to really do that outside of. You know, teaching in the undergraduate program, which they don't actually prepare you to teach lessons, is teach you the legalities of IEPs and special education and 504s, which is amazing because I can write an [00:08:00] amazing IEP and very legal, but they didn't teach you how to connect with kids on an authentic level. On a culturally responsive level. So being able to, to do that in a day treatment center in such a secluded place where it was like, one was really overseeing the curriculum that I put in front of students. It was really like, they meeting their IP benchmark goals? And even earlier we talked about it wasn't even about testing.

It was just like, are they? you know, able to regulate themselves to be like safe around each other.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: through that, I was able to do what I wanted in the curriculum. And there were so many things you can do to meet a standard, like a standard is, what's, what's a standard, right? Give me any standard. I can fit any social justice component into that standard.

And so, but what I chose to do was around the world theme. And it was really. Uh, intricate and intriguing. And I taught all the subjects. So it was really immersive. We [00:09:00] would study a new country every, uh, month and within that month, we do all of our math around that country and we do all our science and social studies and English around that country.

And it was really engaging. And that was actually, so I taught there two years. My first year, I did not know how to do that. I was, it was, whew, that was rough.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: the second year, said, Oh, I'm going to do what I want to do. I'm going to do what has brought me here, which is be stubborn, be, you know, be that innovative person and how I think in general. And when I came back with that around the world unit and saw how engaged students were, it, that was a wrap. I said, Oh, I can do this. I don't need to just do any curriculum. I can do my curriculum and it can be effective.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah, I think that this idea of being able to teach what you know is best for children in the way that's best for that particular group, right? Because every year the [00:10:00] vibe is different, of course. You know, it just, it may not necessarily work every time that particular idea, um, or set of objectives, but just having that freedom, so many educators will never know.

Some of them, because they, won't have taught long enough to get to a place of feeling confident about teaching from like from some seed in their mind and some of them because districts and schools are so adamant that they use a textbook or a set of textbooks that they never get a chance to teach all these beautiful ideas that they have in their mind especially towards social justice.

I remember my first year teaching we had Houghton Mifflin's Language arts. I mean, we had a grammar book, a spelling book, a hardcover anthology, and I held on to that like it was the great bible. You couldn't tell me anything. I'm like, today is Tuesday. We're on page 7. And I was, I held on so tightly by the time that I left teaching.

I was also teaching social studies, or [00:11:00] excuse me, social justice and math as two separate classes. Um, and the ways that I was able to, like, critically think about, like, what do I want my students to know and to be able to, to feel deeply in this social justice work. It was so much fun to teach, uh, that, that curriculum that really we co created as a class, right?

Um, so I just wanted to say, pause and say that I, the idea of being able to teach the things that you come up with is such a freedom. Yeah. Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: but a lot of these textbooks is, um, It's made up. Uh, so, so I really love this idea of, like, you being able to disrupt it by the end. reminds me that my first year teaching, I remember this, because I went back and was looking at something. I was like, oh, yeah. Did I teach Columbus Day? I sure did teach [00:12:00] Columbus Day. What was I? And it's just like,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: idea of being given something, being like, this is what you should do versus like, trusting yourself, being like, this is how I'm going to disrupt what you're giving me. Um, and there's, there's a beauty in that once you realize that as an educator, but it takes so many educators so long to understand that, you

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah. Did you,

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: know?

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: did you experience any pushback from the administration or families when you lean more into the social justice route of teaching in that second year?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: I didn't. And I think this goes back to kind of what we were talking about earlier is that there were a lot of what I learned in these positions because I taught in the day treatment centers and I also taught in the prison juvenile boys. what I learned in both of those was that the district didn't. Didn't care. They didn't care about those students. They had discounted those students. They'd they'd already, [00:13:00] um, they'd already collected that money they needed for those students.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Mm hmm.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: far as what they learned or didn't learn, um, wasn't a priority for many district personnel. No, but I did, um, have a lot of chance to work with families.

I remember in that around the world unit, we were learning about one of the students really was into like origami and like martial arts and things like that. So speaking of like adapting, so we, Japan as one of the around the world countries that we did. And I like called up a sushi place and they were like, yeah, we'll definitely donate like sushi cheese.

So like on

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Oh, yeah,

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: like when we had all this sushi and I was like, Oh, that's so sweet. It was like a lot too. I was like, okay. like, well, how old are they? What would they like? And of course it was like, California something that

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: of course.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: But, um, yeah. So, [00:14:00] no, I didn't get a lot of pushback from district personnel, but what I was able to do was bring in the community and family. Um, I didn't get a lot of pushback from family either as far as like what I was teaching. and I feel like maybe it's because I didn't go deep enough into it. I feel like because I wasn't pushing boundaries enough. within those, um, early units. It was more like education and informative as opposed to like disruptive and like challenging.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Hmm.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: so that's, and that too, right, is a skill that you have to learn how to create lessons that are actually innovative and actually, going to challenge the status quo and disrupt some of these stereotypes and biases that we are taught at a very young age. Um, So, yeah, it was, uh, it was a very interesting time, and those schools are no longer open, right?

Like, the prison, I want to say, like, that one went through a really huge change. I don't, [00:15:00] know how well it's doing, and both of the day treatment centers I've taught at, all the behavior group homes I've taught at, they're closed. And it's like, where do these students go, and, um, how are they being served?

Because

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: haven't changed. They still have needs. But they're just not being serviced now.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah. What I, I noticed in a, this a school district where I used to work that they, I think they're bringing it more in-house, and I, I hope that's the case, that they're no long, that the, the schools districts aren't now building schools to support students that you're describing, but they don't have to leave the district's.

care, I guess I should say. I hope that's the case for every district. I don't think it is though. And so even though you're talking about Colorado, Denver area, we're talking to educators from all over the country who've probably experienced something similar, right? And so, yeah, we just, we don't know. [00:16:00] And yeah, are the students getting the type of care that you described if they are in a school district's specialized setting?

We'll, we'll never know.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah. And

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Sure.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: definitely see what you mean. Like there's, there seems to be maybe more effective needs behavior centers that are like built in within the schools. Um, And what I found was it was still not always enough care given to those students, even within those effective needs programs. Um, and it was another way of seclusion, uh, versus, um, education and inclusion. Um, and giving, like, the least amount of support needed, while still, like, promoting that they are, you know, Developmentally socializing with their peers, um, and it's a fine line and it's hard to do. And, uh, after I [00:17:00] left the The day treatments in the prisons and all the behavior specialized schools. I went into the public school system sector and found that very thing that there were a lot of students who were in the effective needs program and, um, We're just stuck there,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: there, if they didn't need that service. And the opposite side of that, there were students who I tried to get into the special needs effective needs program, who had a really hard time getting into it because of district needs.

So it was really, it didn't feel to be responsive to the individual student. Um, versus like the pendulum that just kept swinging with, like, this is how we're going to do it, and this is how everyone's going to do it, and then this is how we're going to do it, and we're going to be strict, and this is how we're going to do it, and we're going to be, you know, lenient, um, back and forth, was a real conundrum within the district.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah. You mentioned that you were at charter school for eight years and [00:18:00] that you said you felt like you were finally finding like a middle ground or a place where it was working. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: yeah, after I, uh, left the public school sector in, in, in quite a fury, um,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Wait, wait, wait, wait. In Quiet a Fury we Okay.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: the, with the closing of the school, the injustices, and um,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: They missed that on this recording.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: in this, we didn't talk about that in this recording.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: No, we gotta go back. We gotta go back. We forgot the Fury because, yeah, we got that on the first imaginary episode.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Okay. Well, in that public school where we talk about like whether or not students are getting the support they needed. My experience working at one of the schools was the difficulty. It took the hoops that you had to go through in order to get students into those effective needs programs and, um, I [00:19:00] tried so hard one year to get this one boy, just one boy.

And I just, I just know that he would thrive there. We had a really great structure, speaking of like the fact that a lot of those programs are now in the schools, which is great to be integrated into the community. Um, and so I was at a school that had a program in, in our school and I wanted to have him be serviced in those, classrooms as well.

And, um, I finally got him in there. It took all year, took all the testing, it took all the, you know, the behavior plans, it took all the multiple rounds of making sure that it was actually the support he needed. And I finally got him in there and the district personnel came back and said, no, this is still not enough.

So

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Mmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: You and um, still far, right? Like I still find he was able to get into the program and stay into the program. [00:20:00] And that was the last year that school was open in that school.

There was a sixth, seventh and eighth grade. We didn't have sixth grade that year and the eighth grade was going to ninth grade. So all the new school had to take in was the seventh grade class. Um, and one of the students and that student who I mentioned was in that seventh grade class I had to take. But I had also worked with the whole rest of the school, right? It was a, it was a closing school. We all, all hands on deck. We just had to be in there. So I worked with the rest of the class as well. And one of the students I worked with particularly was a gifted and talented black voice. So such a genius, just, just smart, just picked up on everything. And what we also know is that students, um, some students with, uh, gifted and talented capabilities also have behavior capabilities because they're bored, um, because they're, you know, they get through things really quickly because they're not being challenged and because their, their bar is so low for them in general. [00:21:00] So the next year I come back to the school that's closed and now this new school's moved in and it's taken all of our old students along with them and it's like happy to have them supposedly and I go to a community meeting and I'm talking about, you know, just the injustices I saw in that last year, that one incident being one of them, that scenario where I couldn't get the student the help that he needed. some of the scenarios were like the water fountains weren't working all school year long until the last week and finally the district came and like fixed the water fountains so that the new school that was moving in that also happened to be majority white had working water fountains, um, and the school that was majority black did not, um, and so, you know, I was saying something at the community meeting.

I don't remember what, but it was, I'm sure it was something disruptive and, and, you know, and. A teacher comes up to me who worked at that school afterwards, and she said, [00:22:00] you know, you know, thank you so much, da, da, da. And she said, I'm just so glad that we can get students the help they need. Like, so and so, I'm so glad that he got into the A.

1. program. And I said, well, What do you mean? Like he's a genius. Why would he be in the A. M. program, Effective Needs Behavior program? And she was like, Oh, that's just what they decided. And what turns out is they took all the little black boys and put them in the Effective Needs program and then put them in the basement. And that was their eighth grade year at this, like, new school that moved in. And it was just so disheartening to see the system work exactly the way that it was built to work.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: and you had said in the last episode that the systems put our kids in basements. and to see that actually in play in the present moment, was, yeah, that was shattering. And then I left public schools after that. And

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: [00:23:00] Yeah. And

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: right

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: I'm glad that you shared that story again. I'm out.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Editor, I have some feedback. So, if you

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Mm

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: the feedback out, go ahead and do that. And I will step back from the microphone a little bit. And, we're back. Yeah, so I'm glad you shared that story because, um, I was saying before, there are lots of folks who would think, Well, my, like, how is that possible?

Or, that's just one school. Or, I wouldn't know if my child was put in the basement. Well, maybe it's, you wouldn't know. And there are more schools out here who put our kids in literal basements or off to the side or some other room or some other, um, mobile, um, and paint it as something else, but they're, they're being, um, pushed out, right?

And the system is working the way it was meant to work. And I think there's so many of us who are interviewed on this show who talk [00:24:00] about. The grief they experience from seeing our children in these spaces, right? And that vicarious trauma of witnessing that and not being able to do anything about it, or as quickly as we would want to do something about it.

And it drives us, a lot of us, out of education or out of public schools. I don't know how much we're talking about that when we talk about pay raises and we're talking about four day work weeks. Are we talking about our children being put in basements? And I don't, I think the answer is no, right? Um, and we need to have that conversation more, more often.

So thank you for sharing that story. Um, you were, you went to charter school eight years. Tell us about it.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: I was at a charter school for the last eight years. I got, I drank the Kool Aid. Um, I really bought into the value sets. Um, I think [00:25:00] what I loved about the charter school initially that I went to, because again, things shift and change and, um, not always for the and, um, but what I saw when I started at this school was. They really wanted to live out these values. They wanted these values to live in the halls and the teacher's speech it, you know, in the lesson plans and the handouts. They wanted to see these values live and they made these intentional decisions and practices. to make sure it did. Right? Uh, almost to the point where it was like cult like, but, I don't know, but it was still like, we all drank the Kool Aid who were there.

Um, and because we all drank the Kool Aid, and because it was, it was a very spiked Kool Aid, we really didn't feel like We're able to, um, invest fully into the students in a way that I've never seen students or [00:26:00] teachers invest in communities before, um, not always in healthy ways, like, like work life balance,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Sure.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: a way that was like, our students will win and our students will succeed. Um, And they made sure of that. And that's what I loved about the charter school was they just had the, the, the drive and the, and the, and the, and the mindset and the value set to drive to that, um, in a way that I hadn't seen schools. And maybe it's because the charter school was smaller. Um, maybe it was because they had more autonomy over like how they, you know, went about things, but it's not something that you see often in public schools where you really have. Everyone rallying, rallying around, uh, you know, to and through and getting students to where they need to be.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: yeah. Mm

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Tell me about the work life balance. Because I've, I've heard that lots of times when [00:27:00] we talk about independent schools or charter schools where people are 6am to 6pm no matter what. What was your experience? Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: uh, most teachers didn't have kids there, you know, like, I feel like there are maybe two or three who had. Um, I just don't know how. Uh, my experience was the, the Kool Aid blinded them or something. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I didn't always work that hard.

I was like, what are y'all drinking? Because uh, I believe in this value, but I'm gonna go home and go to sleep. um, I felt like didn't mind, which was weird. It felt like that was, for some teachers, it felt like that was their, their mission in life. Um,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: was their [00:28:00] life, uh, for, better or worse, and for, um, Most of them actually turned out to be for worse. Um, and it really damaged. I think when the pendulum swings so hard, it really, uh, swings you off your post. And so I think when. When someone dedicates their life to a school that they believe so deeply in and then that pendulum swings and knocks them off their post, it really impacts their self identity as well because teaching, I'm a teacher, is part of who we are and so to have it not, um, be honored in the way that you're so accustomed to and to have things shift and change, um, I feel like it really impacted people's sense of, like, self identity.[00:29:00]

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Hmm. Mm

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: affects their mental health,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: hmm. Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: you know, I left charter schools. I left teaching, um, after the pandemic. I taught the whole pandemic taught, uh, online the whole time, didn't go back. And what I realized as I was teaching online was that I just love the teaching aspect.

It was, I didn't have to do all the other things, right? It was just like, Oh, I just get to teach you.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: you and that's it. Like that's all I get to do. And I don't have to do the lunch duties and, um, you know, the bus duties. And I left, I said, I don't want to do no more lunch duties because we were going back in person that next, uh, year full time.

So it was like two years and online. And I was like, I can't go back to that. In addition to. When the Kool Aid got watered down, right, when this pendulum swung and there was like a whole nother structure within the charter school, [00:30:00] um, part of that reason there was new structures because people left and they took that institutionalized knowledge with them. And so when the new leaders came in and they tried to recreate that same feeling of family and that same Kool Aid, they didn't have the right recipe.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Um,

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: So, so then there was a big, you know, mass leaving and shifting. so when that happened, you started to see more of those injustices that I saw in public schools creeping to the charter schools. And on a personal level, I had a partner who taught at the school I was at and it faced a lot of racism, a lot of racism from the students specifically. um, and like you said, the vicarious trauma through that, through seeing them go through that and not seeing [00:31:00] them be supported in that from the, the new staff, by the new leadership really disheartening as well. I think was one of the, another reason I really left, um, that specific school. And in the end, had a lot to do with where I think I left teaching in general, because I knew there had to be a different way. There had to be a better way.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: yeah, we, we talk a little bit sometimes on the show about this crossover and spillover of racial battle fatigue or anti blackness or, or fill, fill in the blank, um, because it's a, it's a real thing. The way, especially if your partner is also in education, right, then we're getting it from all sides. Um, and that can be really tough for people, especially when The expectation is that we're supposed to be backed up by our colleagues, right?

I think I've talked about racial grief in the past [00:32:00] on this show and how, you know, there's this grieving due to racism where, and I don't know the race of the folks at the school, but I will say that this belief that, you know, you come in, they talk family, they talk community, they say these buzzwords. But then when we come up against racism or racialized incidences, there's a lot of silence.

And then we, I feel like so many of us start to see the depth of those relationships with people that we've known forever. And we grieve that. Right. Because you thought we were all, we were always, I went to your baby shower. I babysat your dog. I did this. And it's just, that's just not, it doesn't matter.

Right. Um, and that's super tough. And thank you for sharing that because it's never easy to, to witness that happening to someone else or yourself and then someone else as well, especially that powerlessness for some people that they [00:33:00] experience. where they want to be of service or help but they can only do so much because they're going through their own things as well.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: yeah, yeah, yeah, and the emotional waiver. We won't

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: either. I think that's also why I left was because I was like, yo, I did not have the emotional regulation to regulate myself. And another human being that's 13, which is the worst age ever. So I'm just,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Facts. Facts.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: so I left and luckily before I left, um, I had really built up my skillset.

I really had dedicated my whole life to teaching and education and between special education, I was taught English. I was also the director of special education and then in the English language, second language or English language development. Um, um, And really was able to hone in this, this skill of creating culturally responsive curriculum that was rigorous, that was immersive, that was engaging, [00:34:00] and that was still able to meet standards because anything can meet a standard, really.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: and I really left with a lot of knowledge and armed with the skill to. Make significant change outside of the school system. Um, and so I'm excited for this, this next journey and this next step that's, uh, process and, um, just blooming,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah, and we're going to get into that. We're going to actually go to break and have a few more questions. We definitely are going to get into what you're doing now, because I feel like folks need to be talking to you and tapping in and emailing you, but we'll take this break and then we'll be right back.

All right, welcome back to the show. Sarah Spitting Knowledge, all the things. If you, you gotta, you gotta listen to the whole thing straight through if you are getting somehow found yourself in the middle of this episode. Um, so you talked about like the pandemic, [00:35:00] all the things, the, the fatigue, um, being the reason why you decided not to return back to the classroom, not having to do lunch duty, not having to do all the, all the duties.

Uh, and so let me ask you a question. What is it that you feel? That school districts and unions and independent schools can do to keep black educators in classrooms, at school sites, paraprofessionals. What do you suggest that they do to keep us, um, in those spaces?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: I think there's, I like I should have came up with my answer because now I have like all these ideas, but I think one that comes to mind is, um, I wish it was more positive. I wish, I wish I could be like more positive in this phrasing, but it's just like this idea [00:36:00] of don't run us out when we speak up and say stuff, you know, it's like, so I've seen so many black educators who, um, try to disrupt, right? Try to, um, speak up and they're silenced and fired, um, or pushed out.

So

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: hmm. Mm hmm.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: was like, how can you say that in a positive manner? Listen. without backlash. I think that's what it is. It's like, don't punish us for speaking the truth and sharing what we witness.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: I like to say, I like to say white lash. I like to say white lash, but go ahead, continue, continue.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: That's hilarious. Um, don't question if it's, if I don't want to say don't question if it's true, but don't like, Believe us, like, like, believe us. Like there's [00:37:00] so many things. It's like, is it really like that? You know, leaders, when you go to leaders, but what happened? But no, this is, this is the narrative. This is my, my perspective. This is my, where I'm at. This is my point of view. Um, and instead of believing that things are happening or believing that this is an issue or a problem, um, choosing to put a different, a different solution and that doesn't match the problem type thing. Um, I think those are what I've seen the most with Black teachers is like, they'll bring up an issue and they're chastised, or they'll bring up an issue and they're not believed, um, what's the word for that? Hmm, I don't know. But, I think beyond that is like, not making them the token, you know, I don't want to be the token Black person who speaks up. during the one DEI session we have once a year, um, [00:38:00] to speak on behalf of all black people. Um, and I don't want to do your identity work for you.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah,

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: So I think one of the biggest things is, is do the identity work. If you, if you do your own identity work and you challenge your own biases and you call each other out, then that leaves me less emotional labor that I have to do to call you out.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: yeah, and that I love that emotional labor that I don't love emotional labor, but I love that you keep saying that because it is a late it's labor and it's free, right?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: you said that I have to call you out on and there's so many folks who've decided that they no longer want to call people out.

They're just exhausted from calling people out with no change being made, right? And so they just become resentful and silent. And I'm not blaming anyone for that because a lot of us love teaching or want to stay in the profession and just need [00:39:00] to figure out how to pick their battles so they can stay where they want to be.

That's not everyone. Obviously, it's not me because I am not teaching anymore. Um, but that's super tough to be the one that's always having to call folks out, especially in schools. Where you might be the only person of color, the only black person in that building. And so, it's like, what do I do with that?

How do I not hold the burden of trying to teach folks who don't want to be taught?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: hmm, yeah, yeah, and trying to change mindsets that have been ingrained since birth that you're not even willing to investigate.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah. Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: I think,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: can you convince someone that their grandma is racist? Like, that's, that's, that's essentially what, what I feel like the eye work in schools.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: yeah,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: It's like, no, that you, it's impossible to change the mindset of folks who don't want their mindset changed because that would essentially mean that you're basically [00:40:00] telling them, well, your family's been racist since the beginning of time and you have to figure that out for yourself.

Like, go journal about that. And that ain't happening, right? So, yeah. Yeah, that's tough. Yeah,

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: because I'm a big, bald, black, queer lady, um, There's, there's, there's a lot of experiences, right? Privileges and oppressions that I experience. And one of the privileges of being who I am is that I get to be so reflective and whenever I enter a space, cause it's how, you know, we're taught to.

assess whether the space is safe or not. I've never recognized the privilege of the fact that that I just, I think I like, like people don't always think about this. I was talking to my friends. They were like, no, not everyone thinks about like privileges and pressures. Like not everyone thinks about how they think.

Not everyone thinks about all [00:41:00] these different things. And I'm like, I'm so grateful that I have the capabilities to be so reflective and the opportunities to be so reflective every day. And we have to teach that's not unless it's something that you practice. You have to teach that skill to the, to the teachers.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: yeah, teaching critical thinking to teachers as they try to teach critical thinking to students. Hmm. Another episode, another time. So my favorite part of the show is this next section. And I'll start off with asking the question, is there a black educator that you would like to shout out?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Black educator. I have so many black educators I want to shout out.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Go for it. Mm

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: when I think about this question, I was thinking about those who've also paved the way and those ancestors.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: hmm.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: One, um, ancestor that just became [00:42:00] an ancestor this year at the ripe age of, oh my goodness, how old was she? Late 20s, early 30s? Uh, is Lindsay Pupul, and she worked for charter school here in the Denver metro area for 13 years at one school, and worked her way up and was like amazing, incredible, but it's just like, uh, I just, I love the work that she put in into building community. We talk about institutional knowledge and she was just amazing at, uh, creating, um, that safe environment for students.

Um, so out to our ancestor, Lindsay Pupul, shout out to Michelle Blades, um, to Webster Johnson, to Deanna Hudson, to Keena Day,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Ah, Keena Day! Shout out. Mmm.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: I also want to shout out, I was thinking about this, shout out to my seventh grade teacher, Mrs. [00:43:00] Washington at Burt Rumble Middle School in Warner Robins, Georgia. Um, cause I gave her, I feel like she was like the only black teacher I had and I was not super nice to her. So wherever you are, Mrs. Washington, shout out to you. Look at me now.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: I love that. Anybody else?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Who else? Shout out my mommy.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Um, I also have a lot of educators in my family, so shout out to my aunties, my auntie, educators and social workers.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah. That's hard work. Um. What are you doing now? We want to hear. You kind of gave us a preview at the very beginning, but we want to hear everything about your, your business, your curriculum development, all, all the things that you're doing. Mm hmm.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: All the things. All the things I am, um, creating a more [00:44:00] just and liberated world. And I'm doing that through lessons, and I'm doing that through curriculum, and we're creating some really dope, uh, innovative, transformational, queer, intersectional modules, and it really goes into how we, um, these are not isolated incidents, you know, these are not, you know, we are just one type of person, we are many, many community. things. We are made up of many identities, and because of that, like, we need to see how they overlap. We need to understand that this fight is not just a one person fight, like, the fight for liberation is a fight for everyone's liberation. And, uh, I'm really excited about these modules. They begin with, like, the queerness, um, and It really goes into, like, queer and ethnicity, and queer and religion, and, uh, queer and gender, and really beginning with, like, the ABCs of queerness, and what does that mean, and the fact that we've always been here, we're always going to be here, [00:45:00] and, uh, we are integrated into every identity. Um, that's one thing I'm doing, is these turnkey modules. I'm also creating some really amazing customized curriculum for the Matthew Shepard Foundation right now, which Creating a erase hate unit. Um, and it also really looks at this catalyst of change and laws and looking at it also through an intersectional lens. Um, I'm really excited about the, the trainings and the, um, the coaching sessions that I'm starting to, starting to do, um, with a couple of different schools um, teaching. What is it? What does it mean when we talk about liberatory education and also teaching how do we create? Social justice education lessons because, uh, it's a skill that if not done effectively will actually do more harm than good. And it's a skill [00:46:00] that everybody is taught when they go to teacher college. Uh, um, So it's a lot of different prongs of what we're doing, and then the next prong that's coming out in three years are our liberation centers, where students can come and practice some of these liberatory skills they've learned in the curriculum, um, in these spaces that are safe, where taxed with being the simulated bad guy. Um, But they do have opportunities to, to intervene and to practice what it looks like to, to have more just world. So, lots of things.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah, it's beautiful. So it sounds like you work with schools, non profits, foundations to create, build curriculum. Okay, and how do people find you if they want to reach out? And, and, and we're going to talk about the sabbatical because I can't let you off the hook without talking about that. But when you get back from having fun in the sun, if your [00:47:00] books are not books, how could people find you?

Or just if they want to ask you a question, how do they contact you?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah, you can find us on Instagram, uh, Lessons in Liberation. You can find, uh, me on LinkedIn. You can also find Lessons in Liberation on LinkedIn. You can go to our website at lessons n liberation. com. Thank you. Or you can email. Email me at sarah@lessonsnliberation.com

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Thank you. Now, normally the next question would be what's bringing you joy these days. Um, but I'm going to have to go back. So folks, a little backstory. I was talking to Sarah a while back. And Sarah says, yeah, I don't, I'm not taking any more clients right now. Cause I'm, I'm, I'm going on sabbatical. I don't know where I'm going to go.

I'm just going to be gone. I'm just going to be living my best life. And I was like, that's nice. And so I need you to talk to folks about this sabbatical and the reason why, or I'm calling a sabbatical, you [00:48:00] could call it something else, obviously. Um, I think the reason that people need to hear is because this, this need for rest.

Right. Educators in and outside the classroom. We, we need time for rest and we need time for a reprieve. And so I want people to hear what you as a bald, black, big queer woman, is that what you said?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: hmm. Mm

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: What you're doing to take care of yourself. So please share about this time, this time of rest for you.

And then ended up in this conversation with what's bringing you joy these days.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Rest is resistance.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: certainly what it is. Um, and we can't do this resistance work without rest. So I am taking some time off to, to to reconnect, to, um, re center, and I'll be heading to uh, the beaches and some spiritual retreats, hopefully a couple of [00:49:00] different places, Bali, the Maldives, Costa Rica.

I haven't decided all the places yet, but what really is driving this need is, um, The need to escape.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Say it again for the folks. Wait, wait, wait. Say it again for the folks in the back. What is it a D for?

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: The need to escape, like, there's just so much right now. The need to escape, the needing to reset is so heavy right now. I'm like, well, maybe I could just move out of the city, like, just go to nature. I'm like, that's not enough of a reset. Like, I need a hard button, like, factory reset. So I can come back wanting to continue to do this work because I think it's like, we get to the point where we burn ourselves out.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: desire, the motivation is not even there anymore. And I do want to do this work. I still want to do it. And I recognize that the emotional labor that this takes to, to do this [00:50:00] research, to present to people, to change mindsets, um, requires a significant amount of rest and a significant amount of peace during that rest.

Um, to do that. So I am doing a sabbatical, uh, and then I'll end it with a work retreat. I will come back and, and, and, you know, perfect some things and have it ready for, uh, when I come back in 2025. Um,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Y'all, Sarah's smiling so hard right now. Will you, I'm gonna just, you know, come on back in, uh, the next year. So, write notes, take that, take that, take those notes down folks. Yes.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: so I'm excited for all of it, but I'm really excited, I am excited for the rest and sabbatical and the clearing of my mind so that I can do the work because I am ending with a deep work session, uh, and I'll probably take a little break after I, after that. But, um, there's something about deep work. [00:51:00] So much of our work is shallow work,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: disrupted that we can't really dive into the nuances, um, and intricacies to really come up with an engaging, effective way to do this work.

Uh, so I'm excited for both of those things. The sabbatical will be amazing, and the time to just focus will also be amazing as well. So,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Yeah.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: has been bringing me joy for that. Um, I think this idea of like, Uh, ending and starting new things has brought me a lot of joy and in that really assessing um, who and what I want to have continue in the next path and in the next journey and next leg of, of this, um, and, and then create and then making sure those bonds are solid, right?

Because it's like, I won't be talking to most people, right? for the next three months. Um, [00:52:00] so being able to spend time with the people who I do want to spend time with before I leave has also been bringing me a lot of joy. Um, being with a community where you don't have to perform, you don't have to show up any way,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Oh, yes, yes

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: um, is what's bringing me joy these days.

Ha ha ha!

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Well folks If you're in costa rica or the maldives or thailand or bali and you just run into sarah tell her What up, what's going on? Uh Yeah, so I need y'all to get free so we can be like sarah To get on get free get free. Um

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Get liberated.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: yeah, get liberated. So if, if you, if you happen to be on Sarah's calendar before she hops out, good for you.

If not, oh, well, uh, this has been another fantastic episode of the exit interview, a podcast for black educators. Thank you, Sarah, for coming on

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Thank you, Asia!

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: And we'll talk to you all later. [00:53:00] Peace.

sarah-graham---she-her-_2_09-03-2024_152727: Bye.

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