On Co-Teaching, Rest, and Black Educator Retention with Keisha Rembert

The Exit Interview Keisha Rembert (2)

Keisha Rembert: [00:00:00] While I was still at that school, like one of the last years, I was a part of a teaching policy organization, and I wrote a white paper with some colleagues about recruiting and retaining teachers of color. And one of the things that we advocated for was affinity spaces and racial literacy training.

And I think that those things are still salient and important. And I know that based on what we wrote, the state of Illinois got some money and for the past three years now have, with state funding, implemented affinity spaces for teachers of color across the state. The state of Illinois

in a world where the recruitment of black educators dominates headlines.

One question remains, where are the conversations with folks who are leaving education introducing the exit interview, a podcast dedicated [00:01:00] to archiving untold stories of black folks. We have departed from traditional education spaces. I'm Dr. Asia Lyons, and I'm embarking on a mission alongside my esteemed guests.

Together we shed light on the challenges, triumph, and experiences of black educators aiming to inform and empower communities, invest in understanding the crucial issue of retention and education. Welcome to the Exit. Interview a podcast for black educators. All right, folks, welcome back to another episode of the Exit Interview, a podcast for Black educators.

It's me, Dr. Asia. We're back in the house. We're back recording. It's an early Sunday morning. Well, not that early, but sleeping in is always good on a Sunday. We are post election. It is January the 26th. It's been a week and I think that Keisha Rembrandt is a perfect guest to have on as we're talking about what it means to be an educator in really Trump's America right now and the work that [00:02:00] she does.

And we'll talk about that, but so excited to have you listening to our podcast or watching it on YouTube. Keisha, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Keisha Rembert: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a week and I appreciate this reprieve.

Yeah, it's been a week and we have work to do. And Keisha and I had this like long conversation before we even pushed record about how are we really, right.

Those of us who support folks in DIJ, folks who work on belonging and inclusivity in community, like, what does this mean for us that don't work necessarily at the federal level, but get funding from the federal level. So, yeah, we'll definitely jump into that later, but we always want to start with that first question, which is like.

Before today, before January 26, years ago, you started an education. So the question I want to start off asking you is, what was the situation, the person that helped you decide that education was for you?

Keisha Rembert: Yeah, that is a great question. And [00:03:00] thinking about that, there isn't just one person there, like many people.

So I am from a lineage of educators. My auntie, Anne. was one of the first Black educators to integrate Chicago public schools on the north side of the city. And so there's a beautiful image of her in a classroom with children of all races and creeds, and she is sitting with a book. And I've remembered.

That image, that image has always stuck out to me just because of who she was, just such a confident, beautiful, caring woman, who even after she left Chicago Public Schools to start a home daycare. Had her former students come to Englewood in Chicago, and if anyone is familiar with Chicago, and if you're familiar with Englewood, you know that not too many people that don't look like me and Dr.

A's are going to be in Englewood. And so. Many [00:04:00] people brought their children to her house to be educated in her house. So I think that I always like to start with that legacy and my ancestors, because that means so much to me. But I didn't grow up wanting to be a teacher, quite frankly. You won't be the first person on the show to say that.

Girl, like, I was like, Oh, I grew up in Chicago. I want to be Oprah Winfrey. I was like, show me the money. I want to talk. I want to share. I want to be in front of a camera. And I went to school and majored in undergrad English journalism. And a lot of the times, because I did like to talk and ask questions, at one point told my parents I want to be a professional student because I just loved learning.

I ended up taking over a lot of professors classes. And so I had so many of my professors say, you would make a great teacher because you just flicking took over my class. And I was like, no, they don't make enough money. [00:05:00] That is not for me. And I had a couple of internships while I was in Boston finishing up undergrad.

And journalism and just found out it wasn't for me. So that's the benefit of being able to be in a field before you fully commit. And so I remember leaving school and thinking, what am I going to do? And one of the things that I did was I started substitute teaching. Cause what can you do with college degree?

You still don't know what you want to do. So I started subbing and I was like, Oh, I do remember this little thing that people was telling me that I would make a good teacher. And that one thing led to another, I end up finishing going to get my master's in education through an alternative certification program, which you took a course, and then the next term they threw you in your whole classroom with whole human beings after one course.

I remember thinking, Oh, my goodness. And I was a middle grade teacher. [00:06:00] So not just like the kids who would call you out because you didn't know stuff. And I did not know stuff and who were calling me out because I didn't know stuff, but actually it was the best place that I could have been. Those, we taught each other.

I feel bad and I'm going to say this to my first couple of years of students. I'm sorry. You were my guinea pigs.

Listen, I've said this on the show so many times. I've said, I don't know that first couple of years. I don't know what I was doing. And I remember my first day of school, boy, his name was Deshawn.

His mom walked in and she's like, are you a first year teacher? And I said, yeah, you can see her face that she was just so disappointed, but she gave me a chance. And now as a having 11 year old and knowing, like, I don't want my kids to have a first year teacher, that we are full of energy. We're full of ideas.

But there's these situations that we just don't know how to navigate. But anyway, I hear you on that. And I know a [00:07:00] lot of educators are listening to this or watching this. I 100 percent agree with you.

Keisha Rembert: Yeah. See, I thought it was just me being in this alternative certification program. It's like, I don't know what I'm doing.

So, I mean, we're all learning together. But again, I think that helps me because. Like I said, I've always wanted, been an eager learner, so I remember after that first year, I was like, oh my goodness, I just stopped and reflected and was like, I didn't, I got some learning to do, and I remember that summer being knee deep in books, somebody gave me Henry Wong or Harry Wong something, and I, the first days of school, the first days of school, and I ate that book up, And then I, like, reached out to people who had been in the field, because up until that point, I was like, I know what I'm doing.

And then the end of the year was like, no, you really didn't. No, you really didn't. And so I reached out to elders and folks who could just give me advice. And some of it was great. Some of it was not [00:08:00] so great. I remember somebody telling me, don't smile for the first three months of school. And I was like, okay, that is not who I am as a person.

So I tried it. And like the second half of the day, I was like, I can't do it no more. I was like, it wasn't even a day in and I'm like, I can't do this. This isn't who I am. So, you know, just figuring out who I am as a person and what, not what I wanted my students to know, but what they wanted to know and what they needed to know.

And so I think that that perspective changed who I was as an educator and actually helped me in ways that. I don't think if I had gone through the traditional teaching pathway that I would have gotten to. So that's how I ended up in a middle school classroom and wouldn't trade that experience for the world.

As I like to say, I'm a forever middle school teacher. I love the drama. I love the gossip. I love the YA. I love all things young

[00:09:00] people. You are a good one. So many folks. I also taught middle grade. I taught fourth, fifth, and then sixth for six years. There's a special place in my heart for anyone who teaches past 6th grade.

7th graders are not the hormones, the everything, and then 8th grade they level out. So how long were you a middle school educator? Like what was that

Keisha Rembert: journey? So 17 years I was a middle school educator and I taught 7th grade. 7th grade is the middle child of the middle child. It's like they are Oh my goodness, but I loved it because I also like to think I went to middle school because I was writing my own.

I was such an awkward kid in school during that age myself, so I was able to sympathize with them in ways and bring my whole silly, crazy self to the classroom and they embraced that. And then got changed to eighth grade and I ended up loving, I love eighth graders because they think they know it all, but then they still make room for you [00:10:00] to bring part of yourself, but then we'll be like, okay, that's enough.

Bring it down. Let's start our classroom. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I loved teaching those middle grades. And when I was subbing, I subbed for a year as a preschool spin assistant. And when students found that out when I was in eighth grade, they were like, how ever did you teach those little kids? And I said, they're not much different than y'all.

I was like, so when people say, oh my goodness, how could you with those big kids? I'm like, they're not much different than the little kids. And they're not much different than a senior. So I feel like I got the best of both worlds teaching in middle grades. I got to see them form and cry and still be vulnerable.

And then I got to see them grow up and move into themselves and kind of blossom. So I feel like middle grades, I got the best of both worlds.

I think it's interesting that, so you taught for 17 years in the middle grades. [00:11:00] A lot of folks that we talk to on the podcast talk about after X amount of years, four or five years, they become dean or curriculum instruction.

Was that a part of your journey or did you stay in the classroom for those 17 years?

Keisha Rembert: I stayed in the classroom. I always thought, and forgive me if you are in administration, I always thought that administration was the enemy or those things were like the antithesis. of teaching, like I felt like you had to lose a part of like the thing that I loved about teaching in order to go into those things.

So that never was something I never envied. Those people never even considered going into that route because being proximate to kids.

Yeah, so I think I don't normally ask this, but seeing how you were in the classroom for such a long period of time and definitely honored that, are there tips that you would want to give [00:12:00] to educators, especially at our first couple of years?

teaching middle school that you've learned over those 17 years that could really help them to build a relationship in the classroom, to get those students who are hesitant to learn because of whatever traumas in previous grades, get them motivated. Anything you want to share with those folks? That's

Keisha Rembert: a great question.

And I think one of the things that I learned that sustained me for so long was that we are teaching each other. Like we are teaching and learning from each other. So, one of the things that I'm most proud about when I was a middle grade classmate was inviting students to be co teachers with me. So, I opened up the curriculum, I said, hey, come in on your lunch, I will bring snacks for you, and let's look at the next unit, and I need y'all's help in telling me how we're gonna make this better and more aligned to what you want.

So I would have groups, I called them my, they were like my focus [00:13:00] group, but they end up becoming like my co captains, co teachers. And so what was in it for them is they didn't have to take the final assessment. They helped me write the assessments. They helped me formulate and retool things. Like, so I'm not into gaming.

That's just not who I am as a person. But they were like, before there was talk about gamifying things, they were like, we need to gamify this. Like this is boring, the students don't want to read just this, but also they would be like, they need to do this, this is some work they need to do. Like they were, sometimes I had to like, whoa, fall back.

Like they don't have to. I feel

like the kids get more intense

Keisha Rembert: sometimes than the teachers. Yes, yes. They were like, no, this is an important assignment. And I'm like, okay, why is this an important assignment? So. Just, but also it helped me understand my students so much more, like to be able to be in that, to have that relationship where they understood that I am teacher, but you are also teacher, and we're going to do this together, and I trust you enough that I'm going to open up this curriculum that you might not have [00:14:00] ever seen before and say, what can we change?

What can we develop together? And I think that that was just That really catapulted my relationship with students that really, like I had a line of students then that wanted to do that. And then when they came back, I always had a lot of students who wanted to come back and visit. When they came back to visit, my caveat was you have to teach a lesson with me or you have to read during first chapter Fridays.

You have to read the first chapter of a book that you love. And so, because then they started to see me like a colleague. I'm invested in this just. As much as my teacher is, so I would just say develop those types of reports that those students in your classroom are potential educators and should be your co teachers.

This is their education, and sometimes we tend to forget that as teachers.

Yeah, you know, I was reading your bio, and you were Teacher of the Year for your state, is that correct?

Keisha Rembert: Well, Illinois History Teacher of the Year, and then I was National Council for [00:15:00] Teachers of English Middle Grades Educator of the Year nationally for English.

You talk,

you listening to some wisdom here. I hope you wrote that down, right? We're not just out here throwing out, this is gems, okay? And I do want to hear about that. I think I remember a part of this story, but yeah, I wanted you to share like what that experience was like for you. I know that so many black educators strive for that type of recognition for the work that they do.

And I say they, because I'm no longer in the classroom, but at that time, I remember our district having teacher of the year, and I was in that district for 12 years, we didn't have a black teacher of the year the whole time that I was in the school district. So yeah, tell us, of course we want to hear about that experience and then.

Obviously, you're not in education in that particular sense anymore. We want to hear more about that. But yeah, tell us about that experience, what that was like for you.

Keisha Rembert: Well, I started needing avenues outside of how you don't educate. It's so easy in education sometimes when you're in a box to think that you're [00:16:00] crazy.

I don't know if I'm who I'm talking to. You could like be in a classroom when you're trying inventive things. And people around you are like, what are they doing? And you're like, I must be losing my mind. So I started to. Really. It was Twitter, actually. How I missed the Twitter that it used to be, that I branched out into and started just been involved in Twitter chats and that really evolved.

First of all, it enables me to be a part of a community that was thinking differently about education and what was important in the classroom. So in my district, you know, what books we taught were important. And then I go on a Twitter and that's not what's important. You know, the students are the curriculum.

And so it just changed my perspective. And so, can I pause you?

Did you hear yourself? The students are the curriculum. I just had to pause you on that. The students are the [00:17:00] curriculum. Oh,

Keisha Rembert: I love that so much. Continue. Yes. And I believe that, and I still believe that in my current role, which we'll talk about, but I started to just branch out and be part of different organizations and different learning opportunities for myself.

So one of those was National Council for Teachers of English. A friend invited me to their conference and I was like, Oh, I found my people. And then another organization that was vital to my growth and development was the Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History. And so, being part of that organization, somebody nominated me for History Teacher of the Year through the Gilder Lehrman Institute.

And so, I won for my state and I was so incredibly proud of that. Because first of all, it wasn't me seeking a nomination for myself, it was someone else nominating me. And also The nomination process also included other educators and students writing on your [00:18:00] behalf. And so, then to win that just I don't know, to win both of those because the National Council for Teachers of English was also a pretty stringent process where other educators, parents, as well as students had to write on your behalf, but I was just so incredibly proud of that.

And I remember coming back to my district and, you know, like, oh my goodness, I have won this thing and crickets, crickets in my building. I remember thinking, Oh, surely my principal will say something at the next faculty meeting or there'll be a shout out in the principal's newsletter. And not that I needed that, but sometimes you want a little, you want a little like, We want our flowers.

It's for our kids. A little something. And we did this. Yes. Exactly. And I just remember, and this is how I knew it was like time to leave that space. My principal wrote [00:19:00] about a teacher who had gotten a grant for playground equipment. And not that that was. Um, not playground equipment for picnic tables for outside and not that that wasn't great.

And I think that that is awesome to have that for the school. But as I look down looking for any mention of my name anywhere in there, there was nothing. And that's when I was like, okay, this isn't a place where you can grow anymore. And for a long time, when I told that story, I would tell it from the perspective of like I left because of them and I didn't leave because of the administration I left because I had outgrown, not because of anything they did to push me away, but the things that I had done to prepare myself to grow to another level.

I didn't, when I first left, I was embittered when I first left because Also, while I was ready to leave the classroom, to a certain level, I don't think [00:20:00] I was ready. So I felt at that point a little pushed out. And so it was like, yeah, because you haven't recognized who I am and what I bring, now I have to find another space.

Instead of thinking, yeah, but you were putting things in position. Things that you needed to grow and evolve in position for a couple of years. And so you weren't going to be able to grow in that space. And so you needed to evolve out of that space. So it was, it's been a shift and I finally been able to kind of release some of that bitterness.

And now if I saw the principal on the street, I wouldn't have a few choice words for her anymore. I would be able to let it go. I think

it's really interesting. I had Kwame Sarfomensa on, and I think he's in CTE. He wrote a book when he was teaching. Learn to

Keisha Rembert: relearn.

Yeah. He, so his new book is out, but he was talking about on my show.

Same question. Like, what was it that helped you [00:21:00] decide it was time to go? That he had written his first book. I believe it was his first book and other schools bought the book. He got a lot of accolades from other people in community, but his principal said nothing. Same situation. Where the person that he thought was going to at least, like you said, in the newsletter or something, nothing.

Right? Crickets. It's really interesting and I hope to have Dr. Mary Hemphill on. And she also talks about this, like how we grow past where we are in our space. And I want to point that out. And I also want to point out this, like, this bitterness. That's such a real thing. The reason the podcast exists is because of my own experience being pushed out of education.

And I just saw my principal, uh, this summer for the first time in six years. And I had no choice words. See, and that's how, you know, yeah. And that's how, you know, for me, it was how I knew I was healed because I saw her and it [00:22:00] just. I am so much in a better place than I was and I'm just flourish and they could not contain the brilliance that I am right.

And six years ago, I would have not said that we would have been in the Walmart between the aisles. Right.

Keisha Rembert: Yes. I would have been scrapping. I would have been scrapping.

Yes. And so to see her and then just like walk past her. And just have no feeling, go take my daughter cause I was going to summer camp, drop my daughter off at summer camp, drive off.

It was such a wonderful feeling. And so I just want to say for those of us out here who are feeling pushed out and in that space of still healing and trying to find wellness, I feel like time does help that. And I feel like some of us therapy too, but that's just a little piece of it. But thank you for sharing that part of your story.

Keisha Rembert: Yeah, I think it's important and I also think it's important that shift that I came to, that it wasn't that somebody pushed me out, it was just that I grew out.

Period, period. The box [00:23:00] just couldn't continue and I've said this before that I had a mentor who had this calendar on her wall and we're talking about me leaving education.

And I was starting my doctoral program and she's like, you know, it's going to be the doctoral program. It's going to be difficult. Just stay here. Stay here. And the poster or the calendar said, everything you want is on the other side of fear. And I knew it was time to go. Right. So, you know, that's a whole different episode, but thank you for that.

And so on that same vein, then thinking about your own work, thinking about the ways that you have impact. Nationally, probably internationally with young folks for 17 some odd years. What do you think that schools and districts and unions can do? And even folks in higher ed, because you're in higher ed now, can do to keep Black educators, Black professors, school psychologists, and so on.

Keisha Rembert: I, while I was still at that school, like one of the last years, I was a part of a teaching policy [00:24:00] organization, and I wrote a white paper with some colleagues about recruiting and retaining teachers of color. And One of the things that we advocated for was affinity spaces and racial literacy training.

And I think that those things are still salient and important, and I know that based on what we wrote, the state of Illinois got some money and for the past three years now have, with state funding. implemented affinity spaces for teachers of color across the state of Illinois, which have seen amazing results in terms of those folks who are part of the affinity spaces, who are retaining those teachers who are in their building, which is hard during these couple past couple of years of quarantine and teaching online and things of that nature, [00:25:00] as well as being a space of wellness for teachers.

So I think those affinity spaces are critically important. And at those affinity spaces, we fought really hard to ensure that those affinity spaces were just spaces of rest and peace and respite and that they weren't required to do. So when they were first organized, they were like, okay, well, what policies can you bring?

Wait, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, no, no, no, no, no. You're not going to ask us to do the work that should be done on our behalf. This should be a space, if we so choose to do that work, then we can, but this should be a place of respite. This should be water in the desert for folks. And so I think that those affinity spaces are important.

I think it's also important to just have listening. I know that there will be these conversations about pulling back on spaces like that in conversations like [00:26:00] the ones that happen in the Osafenity spaces, but I think it's critically important that we fight that, that we speak truth to power and that we force places to listen and not just listen, but act because if we have learned anything since the pandemic, People can listen all they want, but if they choose not to do anything with it, it's for not.

So what does it mean to listen to Black folk, especially Black women? I'm just going to shout out Black women, like specifically, what does it mean to listen to Black women? Because we've been told you, we have nursed this nation, we have nursed this world. And so, You can't nourish off us and then not do the things that enact the wisdom that we have given you.

And so what does it mean to listen to us and then to engage in the practices and wisdom that we bestow so graciously upon you? [00:27:00] And also to consider, and you know this all too well, our own wellbeing. So what does it mean to also then take a rest? Like my husband had to tell me this week, girl, get off the internet and take a rest.

And then that last thing that I learned as part of that policy group was just. Implementing racial literacy as a nation, as a world, really, we are racially illiterate and I think that that we see that over and over again, even in the policies that are enacted by the current administration. And that racial literacy means that we are learning about each other and the history that goes behind that.

I was just learning. I know this is like a little sidebar, but it's so important to me as a former history teacher. I'm listening right now to Michael Harriot's Black History AF. And I am learning, like just learning, [00:28:00] and I just finished a chapter on Haiti. And now, I'm a history teacher, y'all. I'm a history teacher.

And some of the knowledge dropped about the Haitian Revolution and the nuances of that learning is, in itself, racial literacy. That then undergirds everything. So if I think that the Haitian revolution is just about enslaved people rising up, or that Haiti's current view in the world is just because of that, then I am missing so much more of the story.

And so I think when we have racial literacy, the story comes in full view. And I think that that's what we have been missing.

There's a theme across This interview that I want to point out for folks who are maybe missing it, which is that you cannot leave your education as an educator in the hands of your district or your administrator.

Keisha's talked [00:29:00] about. Going on Twitter, joining organizations, reading books. And if you believe, especially in our first couple of years, some of us are so excited, we just want to do right and please. And if we don't step out and say like, there's more, there has to be more to this and continually, consistently speak, speak up, but also to read up, to write up, to think up.

We're going to be in a place of just shock continually. And I want people to hear that because that's how we outgrow the box. It's from the gathering of knowledge. And I know that that's for some people. It's like, well, I don't want to lose my job. I don't want to, we have to think about expansion beyond like a loss of job.

We have to continually grow our knowledge base. And it's so, so important. And I'm speaking the first year, 30th years, right? We have to continue to take care of our brain and our wellness. I love this affinity group space [00:30:00] and that you spoke about the wellness piece, because when we get excited about affinity spaces, the first thing we want to do is like, let's go and look through all the handbooks and let's try to disrupt.

And it's like, no, people are exhausted. Can we talk about wellness? Can we come up with strategies to be well? Can we talk about community care? Can we make sure that our eating and our wellness and our mental health is good? Right? We don't want to sit down and p p pile through policy on our time off.

Keisha Rembert: Sometimes I just want to talk in dialect that is comfortable to me with people who understand it. Sometimes that's just what I want to do. And so why can't I have that space to do that? With colleagues, right? Because I can do that with friends. I can do that with family. But why can't I do that with colleagues?

Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing that so much. So when we get back from our break, we'll get into the last few questions. But this has been like feeding my soul. I appreciate it. All right, [00:31:00] folks, we'll be back in a minute. I want to pop in to make a quick announcement. I will be recording the X interview live at South by Southwest EDU on March 5th.

That's right. I'm taking a show on the road. We're headed to Austin, Texas, to record a live episode. And of course, I have a special guest. We'll have giveaways, time for questions from the audience. I am beyond excited, and I hope to see you there. Again, if you plan to be at South by Southwest EDU, plan to come and see our episode recorded live.

All right. Back to the show. Peace.

All right. Welcome back to the Exit Interview Podcast for Black Educators. Keisha, remember? And I so badly want to call you Dr. Keisha. I had to double check to see.

Keisha Rembert: Speak it into existence. Speak it into existence. I'm on that journey. So I need that encouragement. Yes.

Yes. And so I think our next question is like, one of my favorite questions is, is there a Black teacher?

And you kind of talked about this a little bit, but is there a Black teacher or teachers, [00:32:00] educators that you would like to shout out?

Keisha Rembert: Yes. So Auntie Anne, um, first and foremost. When I think of educators, I don't think of it in a traditional sense. And I've written about this a number of times. Like the living room floor of my grandparents home was my first classroom.

It's where my grandfather was talking about Bear Rabbit. It was where we heard stories about our ancestors and our history. So, shout out to my grandparents who made sure That we knew who we were and that we were secure and confident in who we were. And my parents were continuing that legacy that I can now continue with my own children.

And then one of my college professors, who was one of those professors who told me, Girl, you are taking over my classroom. You just need to teach. And he passed away a couple of years ago, but Dr. Henry Blackwell from Boston College. I remember being in his classroom and it was the first [00:33:00] classroom in this predominantly white institution, Jesuit institution.

And I have to say this too, because I think this might be germane to some people. I was a mom at 19, so I was going to school. With a baby, had transferred, had left Illinois and moved to Boston with a young child and was pursuing education at this Jesuit university that I didn't feel like I belonged at with a baby who I was like, Oh my goodness, how am I doing this and this?

And it was the first class where I felt seen. It was the first class where I just felt like, Ooh, I can say what I want to say. And if there's not going to be any retribution to what I say. There is going to the way he just looked at me and nodded his head. I was like, or when he calls me, Hey, I need you to come to office hours and talk me through some things.

And because I'm thinking I'm on point saying some stuff and he didn't correct [00:34:00] me in a classroom. He was like, okay, so let me tell you, let's talk about what you say. Think about it from this perspective. What about this, Keisha? Have you really thought about this and just challenged me? And so those were like deeply philosophical, like learning opportunities that I just love.

So I'm so thankful and I hope That I am just one tenth of the type of professor to my students that he was to me.

Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing that. All right, well, what are you doing now? Right? You're no longer a middle grade educator, but you're still out in community, definitely, in higher ed.

So let's hear all the things that you're up to. We'd love to hear that. And you've written articles, so we want to talk about that too.

Keisha Rembert: So yeah. Yes, I'm going to talk about the thing that I'm really excited about right now. And it's going to sound a little weird, but after Beyonce's Cowboy Carter album came out last year, some of my colleagues and I, I work at a Hispanic serving institution in Illinois.

So I [00:35:00] transitioned from middle grades teacher to higher ed because I was looking for a space that was really aligned to what My new vision of teaching and learning was, so I'd done that policy work on recruiting and retaining teachers of color and found that there was one of my friends was working in a university in Chicago, that one of their pillars was to get more teachers of color in the classroom.

And I was like, okay, I'm in, pay cut, I'm in, like, let's go. And so went to that university, which is a minority serving institution and Hispanic serving institution. And I found it refreshing to now be able to say, okay, the thing that I wrote about, I am now hoping to bring to fruition. What does it mean to bring more teachers of color into the profession?

And so that's like super gratifying for me. But so my colleagues and I said, I was talking to some black women that I work with and was like, Hey, we're at this [00:36:00] Hispanic serving institution. And I was listening to Beyonce's lyrics and it. spoke to me about belonging in certain spaces. It talked to me about inventing spaces and then being kind of severed from those spaces that you invented.

And so we started doing research on what is Black belonging in Hispanic serving institutions. specifically for Black women. And so we have started some research and are doing some conferences and doing some writing about what that looks like. Because what we found is that And I'm going to go back to this, this nation, this world has suckled off the breasts of Black women, quite literally, and then discarded them when they felt like they were no longer necessary.

And so we were starting to feel that at our institution, that our voices weren't mattering as much, that even though we were pressing and saying, you know, this needs to be done, justice looks like this, [00:37:00] belonging looks like this, inclusion looks like this. That sometimes we felt like who we were was being tamped down and pushed to the side.

So we're like, okay, let's look at. This specifically in Hispanic serving institutions and let's bring this conversation to others. So that's what I'm really excited about right now. I, um, continue to just write. My book came out, the anti racist English language arts teacher in 2024. Um, and I can say, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. And I continue to do work with districts and colleges. Are doing books. studies and it has been adopted as required text in classes. And I continue to speak to students and educators about that text and why even times like this, it's important to press on with. that anti racist work and do that in collaboration with students.

I think when I think [00:38:00] about my book, one of the things that I'm most proud of is that that book wasn't just me. That book was done in collaboration with over 100 teachers. I interviewed numerous over 50 teachers individually and their words and their ideas appear in the book. It's a collectivist work.

And the climax of that book is student voice. So I interviewed eight students and their voices appear in that text and what anti racist education in an English class means to them. And I will give everybody a little seed. It is not the Great Gatsby. It is not the text. It is in the heart of the conversations and how those conversations are able to evolve.

and change hearts and minds and students see when I saw almost down to the student that I talked to, they see that there is this push to quell their own interest in anti racism and racial literacy and they are screaming that they want it and they need it [00:39:00] and the students that I talked to were of different ages, of different racial makeups and cultural makeups and so I think it's important to listen to them.

Fantastic. The idea of student voice I can't imagine why people forget or choose to forget to incorporate student voice in the work that they do, right? And this, and obviously, again, this is going back to what you said about being in the classroom and the students helping you to teach and co teaching with you, right?

You don't have to, if you're listening to this and you don't have a book or you're not writing a book, you can do that in your classroom, in your community space, in the places that you worship. If you teach youth, like Sunday schools and things like that, or YMCA, Girls Inc., like how do we incorporate? Our youth voice in everything that we do, because for some of us, including myself, I haven't been a youth in a minute, right?

So how are we supposed to know without asking them? And I also want to talk about Erasure. It's erasure. A hundred percent it is. It is erasure. And I also want to say, like, [00:40:00] stop and think about this part about what it means to be in a Hispanic serving institution as a Black person and the anti Blackness that we experience in that space.

Right. Jaleesa Evans was on the show a while back and she does work in California. Yeah. Around, uh, anti Blackness and brown spaces. And we have to recognize that because when we say we have diversity here, right. And we just kind of clumped the BIPOC as if we all have the same experience. We're doing a disservice for Black folks and Black women in particular.

So I'm glad that you said that because we don't talk about anti Blackness and our retention efforts. We just don't talk about that, and we should talk about that more, so folks make sure to pick that book up. Yeah, and I think that, so you work with schools and districts, we didn't say this, but how can people find you?

Keisha Rembert: You can find me through my website, it is www. keisharenbert. com, and you will find [00:41:00] some of the things that I have done, and a

link to contact me. Yeah. Thank you. In the same vein, and I wanted to make sure I said that before we get to this other conversation, we're a week into, after Inauguration. And we're seeing that at the federal level, the erasure of DEI and the trickle down for Target and with these other organizations and Costco saying, no, we're going to stand 10 toes down.

And thinking about the work that you do and the work that I do, I want to ask you, what is the conversation like first in your own head, but in communities where you are doing DEI with other women, other black women, what are people saying and thinking about as far as we're trying to plan going forward, what this could be for us?

Keisha Rembert: Yeah, that's a great question, and there's so many conversations happening, like if y'all saw my text stream, it's blowing up because we're checking on each other too, and I think after the election, there was a [00:42:00] need to just take a breath, to take a collective breath and to say, yeah, I need a rest. I can't do it all.

I've tried. And like, I think it's a fight was so hard, so the rest was required. And I think the conversation now, especially with DEI practitioners and individuals, and we talked about this earlier, before the recording, it's just that This isn't the end of our work. Our work, this is actually the beginning of our work.

This actually shows the necessity of our work, and especially education. So, what I'm finding, especially as I watch the news and listen to folks, people really need to be educated on what justice, Diversity, equity, belonging, inclusion is because it is more clear to me than ever that people have no clue what those things mean, especially when I watch the [00:43:00] news, this idea that, you know, that those things somehow D.

1. I. means that you don't have the most qualified person in there when Black women are the most educated demographic in this country and one of the fastest growing And business, in terms of business owners in this country. So to think that our value is only in the color of our skin, it's just crazy to me.

So I think it's an opportunity to educate. It's an also an opportunity to collaborate, to be in community with other folks. So it is an opportunity to have conversations in the Latinx community about anti Blackness. It is an opportunity to talk. in the Asian community about how we can coalesce and how without the civil rights movements, there wouldn't be space for a number of folk.

So I think [00:44:00] that collaboration and pressing in and teaching, like fundamental teaching, Is what's blowing up in my chat right now. I'm like, okay, what are we hearing? And then what does that mean? What do we need? And we'll go back to Kwame. Like what needs to be unlearned from what I am hearing and how do we do that?

I want to ask a follow up question to that. In the same chat, are people talking about rest?

Keisha Rembert: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. A big part of it is rest. Like, giving each other permission to say, you cannot pour from an empty cup. And I think you need right now, like being able to tell some of my friends, like, it's okay.

Like, it's okay. If you just want to sit this out right now, if you want to just rest right now, that is absolutely fine. Like you need to do that. That's what I think I'm hearing from you. And that's what needs to happen. I think that [00:45:00] that is our chats are all about rest and about not resting. My therapist told me something that was really Really important to me that rest isn't the absence of doing things.

It is rest is also taking, but removing things. So it is removing things that are causing me stress. It was about strategic removal. So it wasn't, I think we think of. Rest sometimes says, Oh, I'm going to go take a bubble bath. And it wasn't that. It was strategic removal of things that give, that bring stress.

Yeah. Thank you, Sharon, for that. Shout out to you doing the good work. Cause I know your books are blowing up at this point. So our last question in that same vein is for you, what does it mean to be well? To be well [00:46:00]

Keisha Rembert: means to be attuned to self. And to be attuned not to what everybody needs from me, but what I need from myself.

And so, to tap into that authenticity, so that that, so when I'm there and I'm visualizing it almost as like a space in my gut, when I know that I am well and full and okay with self, that wellspring comes, like then I can help others, like then when I am safe and secure in my authentic self, sometimes that's just being quiet.

Sometimes that's in the reading of great texts, like Michael Harriot's. Sometimes it's giggling with my adult children. Sometimes it's just being in company and listening to young people, because that's also a space of [00:47:00] hope for me. When I am just listening to young people, the older I get, the more valuable it becomes for me to be in space with young people.

And so I think that's what it means to be well. And all of that boils down to being in community, whether that's being well within myself enough that I can glean from the energy that others are bringing to me.

I love that. For someone who didn't have much time to think about it. I feel like that was beautiful.

Thank you. Yeah. And this attunement to self is just so important. The type of person who becomes an educator is also the type of person who's like overworking and trying to show up and making a lot of self sacrificing. And so when we leave these spaces that will very gladly take every drop, we have to kind of retrain ourselves to give to self first.

Absolutely.

Keisha Rembert: And that authenticity of self, I find, [00:48:00] is Like, so important. I have, for so long, my voice has been a parrot of some other Entity or some other space and the older I get and the more sound I am in self, I'm hearing my own voice. And that's a, she is a powerful thing. She is a powerful thing.

I'm going to end the show with that.

All right, folks, thank you for coming and listening to the Exit Interview, a podcast for Black educators. All of the information that we have talked about in the show is going to be in the show notes. Read the articles, listen to the things, do all the things, take care of yourselves. And we'll see you on the next episode.

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