What It Means To Be Well with Dr. Shawn Ginwright

Untitled project from SquadCast

[00:00:00] Oh,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: All right, folks. Welcome back to the exit interview a podcast for black educators. It's me. Dr Asia so excited for season 5 our first episode and I have a guest host today Stacey Taylor Brandon Stacey what's going on?

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Hey Asia, I'm just so sorry, I'm just so excited to be here. I'm a big fan of Dr. Sean Genwright. I think I've given his book out and talked about him so much that, that I was excited that you reached out to me to be here after being on the podcast twice. I'm excited to be back too. [00:01:00] Um,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: American youth has earned him a reputation as an innovator. Provocateur and thought leader in the field of education. Dr. Jen Wright's research has been instrumental in reshaping the discourse surrounding youth development. His introduction of the concept of healing centered engagement in 2018 has revolutionized the field, providing an asset based approach to addressing youth trauma and fostering resilience.

His work has been cited in the New York Times, and he is a highly sought after speaker on topics ranging from civic engagement and youth activism to the transformative power of healing. Dr. Jen Wright's contribution extends beyond his academic work. He is a seasoned non profit leader, serving as the co founder and chief executive officer of Flourish Agenda, Inc.,

a research lab and consulting firm dedicated to unblocking, excuse me, unlocking the power of healing and empowering [00:02:00] youth of color, as well as adult allies, to drive transformative change in their schools and communities. In recognition of his exceptional research and dedication to urban youth, he was awarded the prestigious Fulbright Senior Specialist Award from the U.

2011. State Department in 2011. A notable author, Dr. Jen Wright has written numerous highly acclaimed books including The Four Pivots, Reimagining Justice, Reimagining Ourselves, Hope and Healing in Urban Education, How Urban Activists and Teachers Are Reclaiming Matters of the Heart, Black Youth Rising, Activism, and Radical Healing in Urban America.

and Black in School, Afrocentric Reform, Urban Youth, and the Promise of Hip Hop Culture. Additionally, because there's more folks, additionally, he has a co edited, the influential volume, Beyond Resistance, Youth Activism and Community Change, New Democratic Possibilities for Practice and Policy for America's Youth.

Welcome to the [00:03:00] podcast, Dr. Jen Wright.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: You know, I need to add. So thank you. I'm glad to be here. Dr. Asia, Dr. Stacey. But more importantly, I'm a father of two beautiful Children that are

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yes,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: living their destiny. I'm a husband of 30 years to an

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Amen.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: woman. I'm a community member. I'm obedient servant, so I should put that stuff in there, too.

So all that other stuff is work. But the stuff that really matters is, uh, is it needs to be in there. But thank you. It's good to be here.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: yes, so happy. So we're just going to jump in it. Go for it, Stacey.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: All right. Thank you, Dr. Jen Wright. And I wish I was a doctor that may be in my path in the future. But thank you anyway.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: me Sean.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Okay.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: name me Dr. J. My mama named me Sean. So,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Okay. Sorry. Well, it's hard for me to call you, Sean. One of my friends calls you brother. Jen Wright. Because she believes she knows you. But, Sean, [00:04:00] um, she's talking about your work. But, um, Sean, thank you for really emphasizing, you know, what really matters. Your children, your wife of 30 years, all of those things, the community, servant, all those things that are important in our community. But, um, one of the things that we just wanted to start out with, the four pivots. phenomenal. Um, mine is here, it's weathered, it's highlighted, all of those things, but it really introduces powerful shifts in perspective, um, from ind or individual and collective transformation. Uh, the first one you really talk about is that shift, or the pivot from lens to mirror, emphasizing self reflection, which is so hard for many of us to take a look at ourselves first. Um, how, you know, here at the, uh, Uh, black educator at the black exit interview, Dr Asia really talks about this idea of racial battle fatigue. And you talk about it in your book of as right racial weathering. So how can black educators use self [00:05:00] reflection a tool for healing from racial weathering and racial battle fatigue?

Mm hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Great question. Um, know, I, I, I really wrote the book, uh, for myself, right. Because I was involved with a lot of work. Uh, working in black communities, uh,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Um,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: I was, know, I was really brought up in the school of thought that justice is what you do outside, right? It is what you do to other people, other institutions. Justice is what you accomplish from the actions you take in the world. And A series of things occurred in my own life where it made me do some deep reflection about my own fatigue, man, about my

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Um,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: own, you know, I write about hope, but shit, sometimes I get hopeless, right?

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Right. That's real. [00:06:00] Um,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: um, have to navigate in our communities. So, you know, I really kind of wrote the book to say, like, if I had these tools, right, I think I'd be better off. And so, especially to your question, I mean, I think, um, know, racial battle fatigue is a real condition, um, experience every day. We all experience it. But I think what reflection does is it gives us a sanctuary of space to ask ourselves what's really important

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Um,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: at this point, right? Um, there's a way in which sometimes, you know, I think of this, this idea of racial battle fatigue is in the way that I was sort of trained is you grind, you grind through it, you battle, you fight,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: you, you, you, you resist just, you resist race, white supremacy. at every front all the time, else or else you just retreat, right?

And, and I [00:07:00] think that's important. I'm not suggesting that we should not confront white supremacy in our lives, but what self reflection allows us to do is ask ourselves, can I sit here and enjoy my daughter's soccer game right

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yeah. Um,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Can I sit here with my partner and watch this movie? And

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Um,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: now, y'all know what I'm talking about?

Like,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: so

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Right.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: gives us that space and gives us the permission, right? to take the spaces that we need to then get back into the battle, right? So there's a way in which I was trained is that you don't have retreat. And we know that from all kinds of battle metaphors that, have to actually have a space of retreat, a space of reflection. And so the mirror work allows us to, you know, kind of do that introspection.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: [00:08:00] Um,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Um, what am I most afraid of? What is my greatest aspiration? What do I hope for in my life? Um, most of the time, you know, generally our self reflection self reflection that's not Um, not nurturing, right? So

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Um,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: might say, what do I need to change about myself?

What

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: wrong? Or damn, I should have said that when she said that racial thing to

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yes. Yes, exactly.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: oh, I wish I would have said that, right? That's, that's the kind of self reflection we generally, that's not, that's not sustainable, right?

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Wow.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: reflection, that's questions about, What brings us meaning?

What brings us joy? What brings us hope? Um, what makes us laugh? Like that's part of this whole ecosystem justice. And so this is a long answer to that question. But

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: This is perfect.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: reflection gives us the permission and the sanctuary space we [00:09:00] need to, um, address this idea of racial weathering, uh, in hopes of transforming it, right? so yeah, I mean, I could, I could go on, but I think that that's a really good question. And. folks can sort of make sense about what that looks like in their lives and their, and in their work.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: was powerful.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Go ahead, Asia.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah. So it's interesting that you're saying that, because I do think that what, what I think maybe some folks, and I'll speak for myself in the past of being afraid of when I sat down and reflected and wasn't tearing myself down was, and now what? And being afraid to answer that question of.

You know what you need to do, right? You know what's the now what? And if I'm constantly moving, constantly joining some organization, signing up for a committee, I don't have to reflect and sit in and figure out the things that I need to do for my own health and wellness, right? [00:10:00] And for the support of my family and community.

Um, and this way that is, uh, going to bring me to a place of being like mentally well, right. And physically well in some cases. So I'm glad that you said that because that. That is really true. I've heard so many folks, especially we talk about to black educators, Stacey and I all the time, who are just saying like, I shoulda, I shoulda, we shoulda, coulda, and that's just never helpful.

So I'm glad you said that. Thank you. Um, I think, and, and feel free, you know, to talk as much as you want, because the community needs to hear what you have to say. So please do not pause your wisdom on our behalf. Um, so I think that, you know, many of the folks that I interviewed on this podcast are black, they're former black educators who've left the field of teaching.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Um, and a lot of them have been pushed out for different reasons. Um, And so my question, like many black educators face systemic oppression that forces them to choose between sacrificing for [00:11:00] their students, right? Like being, especially in the Denver metro area, in the mountain states, we're the only one a lot of times.

In Colorado, there's less than a thousand black teachers,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Um, and so we're asked to choose between sacrificing for our students and being the only one there for them. And so I think the question I'm asking is how does your work suggest we reconcile these pressures to ensure holistic wellness and community healing while also supporting our black students or students, period.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Woof. Woof. You don't have to

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yes.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: another hour to answer that question. I

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: I got, we got some time. If you got time, we have time.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: wow. Okay. I got a, I got a lot of ways to answer that question and I think I want to start with. a gendered response to that question,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Okay.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: women,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: black women in particular hold the burden of the world, right?

That,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Oof. Mm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: way in [00:12:00] which black women care, only for their families, not only for the communities, not only for black youth, but that burden of care and the way in which black women, I think, are socialized, that it's a gender. It's not, it's not equal. Let me just say that it ain't equal. And I could say that from, you know, my experience with my own family and I can see

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: out. and it has consequences. It has, it has consequences and those consequences are, um, mental health consequences for that burden, particularly for black women are consequences of stress, of anxiety, of physical illness.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yeah, say it.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: of, um, of unfulfilled dreams because everybody else, everything else come before me. I don't even know what I want because what [00:13:00] I want is, is to support y'all know what I'm talking about, right?

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yes, we do. Of course.

we, we, we Ummm

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: And I think, um, so that's the one thing I want to say. And I think particularly for black women, Um, there, there, I think it's important one, recognize that this sort of, and I don't want to call it an addiction to care because that sort of, it's kind of blaming, but I don't, I don't want to, I don't mean to do that.

So, so I don't want to call it an addiction to care, but I want to, I want to make sure that folks understand that it's a gendered. It ain't equal for black men or for black trans community, right? And so the, I think one is like, how do you, unfortunately, in my experience, black women recognize it when it's too late, when

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mmhmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: too late.

And what I mean by that is too late is. [00:14:00] Um, there's a melt up a panic attack. There's a hospital visit. a there's a I can't you know, I'm in bed two o'clock in the in the day because I can't get up. Y'all. And so it's too late. Right? And so, and I can go over example over example of example. I'm not going to do that in this time, but I think because you understand the point. So I think one is how, how do we recognize. The pattern of care that's unhealthy for us, right? What does that look like? And then secondly, how do we actually strategically and intentionally and even sometimes selfishly? integrate care for ourselves,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Ummm

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: right? Like, like an intentional space. wish I had more time, like a, cause my wife, I could bring her in when she could, she could amen all this and [00:15:00] be like, my wife's mom, I would just be real with y'all.

Like my wife's friends right now,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Uh Uh huh.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: 30 years. We just, we just celebrated it. And she's classic, this to care, everybody over right

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: She's like, She, I shouldn't say this on your podcast, but she got, she, she quotes Cardi B. She says, I don't cook, I don't clean,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yes. Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: it is a

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Uh

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: claiming her space.

It's a,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: way of her claiming her, her own autonomy for our own care.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: I think secondly, it's like, how do we intentionally micro diet, create a micro diet of self care for ourselves? What's a micro diet. It could be just five minutes. You know, sometimes we think we got to transform our lives and go

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm. Mm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: need to get back into church, all of which is good, but what are the micro things we do every day?

It's like a diet, right? You just do a little bit every day that [00:16:00] ultimately ends up with something more profound. And so, um, I think those two things, one recognition, like what is going on? Like, am I, do I have this overcaring tradition or this, this addiction to care that I feel that my own. Caring for others is actually caring for myself.

That's one. And then two, if you realize that, then what are your micro diets of care that do you take a walk? Do you watch a movie? whatever it is that it should be something intentional and regular, because what that does is it disrupts, right? It disrupts, um, uh, our connection to the unconsciousness, uh, the unconscious addiction to always caring and putting everyone before ourselves. Right. So I hope I answered the question, but I

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: You did.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: those two things help to at least navigate that. Um, because without it, we just continue to sort of grind away and then it becomes too late. I have so many students. and the reason I started off with [00:17:00] a gendered response because most of my students that I've had to support in this area are black and Latino, uh, women, Latino women.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: so glad you said that. I, I remember as you were talking, I remember a woman who called me. I don't know how she found my phone number. She called me eight o'clock in the morning one day

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: said, I found your number. Yes. She said, I found your phone number on the internet. I listened to your podcast.

I've been laying in the bed for two weeks and I was supposed to be at work two weeks ago. She said, I'm a third grade teacher. And I can't get out of bed. I can't go to work. And the school had just started two weeks before. And she's like, what should I do? Should I, what should I do? Should I start a business?

Should I do something else? And I, I'm like, I, I think that we need, you need to prioritize some, like your, your, your priorities are kind of mixed up right now. And I said, I think that you may be, it's maybe time for you to leave education. [00:18:00] And I will never forget this. And I, to this day, I still cannot believe she said this.

She said. But what about my 600 sick days? And so I asked her, and I, first of all, I didn't know that you could accumulate that many in a, over a time like that. But then I, I said, what about 600 well days?

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Like, what does it mean for you to be well, right? Um, and so we, we finished that conversation and I went to, to call her later on to find out what she decided.

I think I heard kind of around community. She ended up on FMLA, but we get to that point where we have. nothing left to give. And we're still talking about, what about a consulting firm? What about starting a nonprofit?

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: yeah,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: And it's like, wait a minute, we're, we're still like that addiction to care. I'm so glad you said that.

So thank you so much.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: yeah. A friend of mine, [00:19:00] um, she says, uh, we need to learn. It's such a profound, simple statement. We need to learn how to give from our excess, not our essence. Because if you give from your essence, that's depletable. But if you give from your excess, it calls into question. Do I have any excess?

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: any excess?

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: you, that's what we need to give from, give from the extra, not from the essence. Um, and so I thought that was, I mean, she, um, uh, she, she talks about this all the time. Um, I think it's, uh, um, it's an important, important sort of metaphor to think about how we need to navigate some of these, these issues, you know,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm. Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Thank you

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: you. So, um, Dr. Jim Raishan, first off, I just want to, uh, Just give you a shout out for just the gender response because many times we don't start there. [00:20:00] Um, and then just shout out to your wife.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: for real.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: also celebrated 30 years this year and it's not, you know, we are rare black. Love black couples, uh, making it, especially in this type of line of work too. So I know that she, um, supports you, but also has her own work. So I don't cook. I don't clean. Uh, that's my mantra too. I didn't realize

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: I was going to say that. I was going to say it was your mantra.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: It's my mantra too.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: That's

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: didn't know Cardi B said it, but I will bring that to my husband.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Listen, the fact that he said that I heard what I remember Stacey saying that when she retired, she's like, this is, or whatever. I think we had a birthday. He was like, I'm not doing this no more. And as soon as you said that, Sean, I was thinking, Ooh, that's Stacy's model too.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yes.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: That's right.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Right. So.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: it's a flag in the ground, right? It's a, it's, it's not, it's not a rejection of anything. It's[00:21:00]

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: I'm making a decision about me.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Right. Right.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: a decision about me. And that's, that,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: what's so beautiful about that. As I see my daughter was looking at my wife

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Hey, like, Oh. actually can go out with her friends. I could do that. She can see a different mama, right? She could see greenness in her mama. could see her mama take a nap without guilt. Right? so, so that's so, you know, it's beautiful to see my daughter be able to, to see that. Right. And so anyway, it's, it's,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: No, that's, you know, what you said is so important because I believe your wife and I grew up in the same age group where my, my mom didn't show that to me. What she showed to me was you get a job in an organization for 30 years and you work and you don't cry about it. And you just do it because that's what we do as black women.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Mm.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: almost killed me. So [00:22:00] the fact that your wife is showing another way of being to be healthy, to live past our, you know, 50, 60 years old, to not be obese, to not be, um, you know, our health compromise, but hard heart attacks and panic attacks and all those things. Because what you listed at the beginning was my life. I started having those panic attacks. I did show up at the emergency room. My husband was with me saying, You, you cannot go on like this. This is not, you're not dying. And they kept telling me it was stress. And I kept saying, no it's not. This is not, this is not stress. I can take this. But I was dying. So, You talked a lot about the things that we can do for ourselves when we do that self reflection and we do the math, uh, you know, getting the air to ourselves.

Um, I love that claiming an autonomy of care for ourselves. Um, well, what do you see [00:23:00] for other leaders? Um, in. You know, educational spaces. How might they be, um, helpful in applying your principles of the four pivots? Cause literally that book, when I was healing changed my life. And that's why I'm such a fan. Um, cause I had retired and I read that. And I was like, I'm not crazy here. This is one of the first healing books for me. Um, but how do you see the four pivots, uh, being used by leaders and spaces to advocate for systemic change in schools?

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think first, um, the book. Right?

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Absolutely.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Folks got to read the book. And it's actually really helpful to read it with someone else or a small group of

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: to kind of like talk it through. Because, you know, Practicing some of the things are hard, right? Around mirror world and, you know, uh, cultivating transformative relationships, like, so these, they're not like you could just read the book and go do it.

Right. So [00:24:00] I hope people read it and read it and talk it and discuss it and try to practice it. So the second thing I think is like, it's, I think it's important for folks to take like the four pivots diet, right? So what is it

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm. Mm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: just me, what can I do? begin to integrate some of these practices into my own life, personal life first, not professional. I tried to not make that sort of my experience and leaders and principals and superintendents that I work with that it's very rarely their professional lives that are in rent and it's a challenge. It's really, they're personal. And then they, they not, they bump up, bump up against each other and you, and it's hard to detangle.

Right. So if you say, just do some professional development, The professional development doesn't make you a better human being, but working on your human being, this makes you a better professional.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Pause. Pause. Say it [00:25:00] again. Say it again for those in the back. One more time, please.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: So, most,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Right?

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: principals and superintendents and educational leaders believe that professional development will assist them their life, with their personal lives, their, their human beingness,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yes.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: it doesn't work that way. Professional development works with you as the hat that you're the chair that you're sitting in as a professional. But it won't help you be a better human being, but working on yourself as a better human being

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: you to be a better human being and a better professional.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: And so I start there. I start, that's why I shared my story about my personal life. Y'all

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: my family because that's it starts. So for leaders, educational leaders, what does this look like in your personal life? [00:26:00] How do you work it? Right? What is the, what is the, what is the level of development you have around? How many transformative relationships do you have in your own life? How do you actually practice, uh, possibility thinking? So I just locate that personally first, right? Those practices. Then, then leaders can work on that personally, then they could ask questions about how that translates into their work. Is it possible that we can actually have some of these practices in our staff meeting? Uh, is it possible that we can actually create systems of support? Right? Like you just said, Asia, most systems have You know, they're focused on you get broken, then we could fix you.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Mm hmm. Mm

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yes. Yes.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: fix it. We'll give you some time to fix, you know, sick leave. Medical leave, FMLA, it means when stuff ain't right, we can [00:27:00] fix you to get back into the work. And, and that's a pathological broken system. So we need to have a more asset based system of support. Like you just said, Asia, right? Like we need to have sabbaticals and wellness days and ways to support the workforce. That's not just when you get broken. So leaders could think about how the four pivots can help. I've talked with superinte are now implementing thes one and actually in texas because

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm. That's right. Mm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: these stipends, professional development stipends for, for teachers to go and learn a wellness practice, like,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Oh, wow.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: meditation or whatever it is.

And they come back and they train their school on these practices and they get professional development units and they get a stipend to do [00:28:00] that. In other words, they're trying to build those systems. Of well being support. Right. So I think individually. First, they try to figure out what that looks like professionally in your own work setting. And then 3rd, what does that look? How do you actually create systems around the 4 pivots? How do you actually create language? 1 of the most important ways that we can use the 4 pivots. in a systems way is evaluating the language that we have in our systems. So if we find ourselves like a common term, like youth or, you know, you know, um, under, you know, what, you know, whatever the language or, you know, adjudicated youth that, or systems, these are terms That we just use take for granted, but they also signal a really deep perspective about how we view young people, right?

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: hmm. Right.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: ways that I think is important, but I think in individual 1st as a personal, [00:29:00] like those what those pivots mean to you, how might they be integrated into your leadership? Right, um, and you're in the folks that you work with and then how do you actually build systems. Um, in your own organization and, um, and, uh, organization and system and institution you're working with.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah, that's absolutely brilliant. Yeah, it is. And I think I've always. When I was, Stacey and I are taught in the same district, and I remember we were part of some DEI trainings and Stacey was actually a part of the PD team. And I remember this like energy coming back from this professional development thinking like, If we're gonna do it, this is gonna be amazing.

And then folks are like, No, you're gonna go back to your classroom and you're gonna teach and you're gonna be quiet. And right, and so it's, Like people, they're, they're sent out by districts, paid, the district paid for the folks to come. But it's like, how do you make sure that everyone's on board? And we know like any other [00:30:00] system that education has people who come and go constantly.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Yep.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: have to constantly be doing or re evaluating and rethinking and having conversation and sending folks out. Um, And it's needed, there's no but, and it's needed, and I'm, I, I know that, at least in the systems that I work within, there was always something changing, like, nope, we changed our mind, we don't want to do reading anymore, it's focus is math, oh, the CSAP test said we need to focus on, and, and the same was kind of done.

When we talk about equity, diversity, inclusion,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Yeah.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: it's like, oh, that's not working. It's not happening fast enough as if human beings aren't a part of it. It's just, we forget, we forget the humanness as you talked about.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah, I, I'm so glad you said that. Um, so no, I, I had another question I was going to ask, but I think you asked, you answered the question.

Um, and, One of the questions I was going to ask is about like what educators can [00:31:00] do to make change in their school district But I don't want to ask that question because we need to be sitting down somewhere We need to be resting, uh, you've made that clear today and we talk about that rest and that need for rest in the podcast all the time and in our, in our daily work, Stacy and I.

So I think I'll, I'll pivot to a question that I asked my other guests. And I think the first question, um, I have two questions. The first question is, is there a black educator that you would like to shout out on our podcast or educators? That's awesome. Yeah, it is beautiful.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: um, yeah, you know, let me think about this. Uh, somebody that I admire, um, actually LaShawn Chapman, who heads up, she's the CEO of, um, the National Equity Project. yeah, she's just, you know, um, does an amazing, she's just an amazing [00:32:00] sister. Um, she's a friend of mine, she's not just a friend.

Like, I just watch how she moves in the world and, and her dedication to supporting black, you know, black teachers and black education is just, and her husband, too, is a friend of mine, Chris Chapman, uh, who, who created an organization, King makers of. who works specifically with black young men,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: as a process of taking these young men, um, and, and to fellowships that really sustain their souls and really, um, allows them to be brilliant.

Um, and so anyway, both of them together, they, they, they, I'll, I'll lump them together. Chris and Lashana Chapman.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: It's beautiful. Mm hmm. Mm

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Thank you. Um, I think, uh, Misha Mosley works with them, with the Black Teacher Project. Yeah, yeah, uh, good people. Uh, last question for you.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Before you get [00:33:00] to the last

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Go ahead.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: It is because want to just say thank you to the National Equity Project because their work around attending to healing, along with your work, and along with Karma, it really is changing the lives of black educators and really the focus on, you know, really changing that framework that we had, that we had to give and give and give, as you said, to excess, uh, uh, you know, essence and excess resonates. But the work that you all are all doing to bring awareness to, uh, that self care is not, um, it's not the buzzword

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Mm hmm.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: white folks are doing.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Mm hmm.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: is essential. To us as a people to be able to be in spaces of supporting black youth and other youth. in our world today, I just want to say that because I know a lot of people that are really studying [00:34:00] your work and looking at National Equity Project and just really just supporting the work that y'all are doing to make us healthier because we have to

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: have to embrace our human being ness. Um, so I just want to say that before you, um,

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: yeah.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: contact Dr. Jen Rice. Thank you. Mm hmm. Mm

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: you know, like this is not new for black

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Right.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: it's not.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: black folk, we have, you know, in the, in the transatlantic slave trade. And when we

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: were brought here, we formed sanctuary spaces.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: We did it.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: churches, they

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm. Mm

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: they're sanctuary spaces so that we can affirm our humanity and feel whole and loved. Even in the context of deep, vicious white supremacy and racial oppression, we still did it. We

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: We did it.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: did it.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Like this thing called healing and self care. It's like, it's not a new thing. It's just saying,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Nope. Mm hmm. Mm [00:35:00] hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Mm hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: got together on Saturdays mornings. They got together on Sundays. They lit the candle and did the thing and they talked and they affirmed other's humanity. that was just enough to get through the next week. Right.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: it's

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Amen to that. Mm

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: a new thing, right? It is only saying that we are here as a result of the spiritual deep practices of our ancestors. What do they look like today in this

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: hmm. Mm hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: we're not dealing with nothing new.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: It's not new.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: here.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: So we just can't forget what got us here. That's all.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm hmm.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: I'm trying to say.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: And that's, yeah, that's what you're reminding us of because when we get in these systems of oppression and these systems that promote and perpetuate white supremacy, we start to believe that we. don't have what it takes to heal ourselves,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: right.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: we [00:36:00] forget that we really do. And then we're so caught up in this, uh, pro productivity kind of wheel that we start to get gas lit. And so that's why I'm affirming what you all are doing because it's bringing us back to our roots that we often forget. Especially when we're in white dominated, um, spaces, uh, that, that promote all of the things that we just are not. So, thank you for reminding us

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. That's right.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: what it takes.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: have it. That's

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah. That's right. Yeah, um, I'll say one last thing.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm-hmm

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Uh, for you, what does it mean to be well?

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: What does it mean to be well? Um, It means, you know, I think of well, well being and, you know, spiritually, physically and emotionally and I'm always sort of navigating those things. Um, what it [00:37:00] means for me to be well is to let go of the things that hold me down and strive for the things that lift me up.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: I love that.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: That's it?

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: That's

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Nope.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: That's a lot. But if you

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: It is actually.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: be a lot.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: of the things that hold me down as people, places and things. And, and strive for the things that lift me up. Um, you know, physically I exercise, I swim, I run, those things lift me up. I meditate every morning. I love my children, my family, and my mama, even though she'd get on my nerves.

Sometime I'm

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: That's real.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: and my

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Yes.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Right. And so those things feed me,

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm-hmm

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: I try to take an inventory. You know, you know, literally at the end of a week, like I take an inventory of what are the things that fed me [00:38:00] and then what are the things that drain me?

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm-hmm

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: And if I, if there's things that, if those, if the last question of the things that drain me are too, too, I gotta let some of them go. sorry. Like, I'm going to just be really honest with y'all. I travel a lot to speak and blah, blah, blah, and talk like, cause you know, I love about this work, but getting on a plane. And traveling to a place and I'm in, in a hotel. And so now I'm like, you know what? I'm not traveling as much. I'm not going to do it.

It don't feed me. And I love spreading the word, but I don't like traveling that much to do

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yeah.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: trying to make clear decisions, right? Like I can, I love this because I can, I'm home, right? And I'm still spreading the word, but those are, they're little things, right? It's micro diets of decisions every day to make about what feeds us and restrains us.

And so I try to keep that of what feeds me. That keep that bucket [00:39:00] full. I try to keep

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Mm-hmm

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: can't do it all the time. And I try to keep the other thing that the bucket, that those things that drain me, I try to keep that one empty, but I can't keep it empty because there's just life. Right. but I try to manage both of those.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Thank you. And I hope that our, our listeners heard that, right? There's so many pieces that, uh, Sean discussed today, the micro diet, all these pieces that we can incorporate immediately to our lives, right? The journaling, the meditation, um, is so good.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: What drained

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yes.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: My friend. Got it right, brother? Jen Wright.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Brother Jim, right?

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Sister Stacey,

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yes. Yes. Amen. Yeah. You know, this has been, I feel fed.

I'm so excited to finally have had you on the podcast. I know this was months out in advance and so happy that you had a chance to stop and chat with [00:40:00] us. I'm just feeling super grateful. Stacey, you have any words?

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: No, I'm full. I was fed. Um, so thank you. Uh, I love it. Anytime a black man shouts out his wife, I'm all for it. So thank you to your wife. Yes.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: that girl. All

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: And your kids

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: Yes. Thank you, Deirdre. Thanks to the kids.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: right.

dr--asia-lyons--she-her-_1_12-11-2024_110722: All right, so this has concluded our episode of the Exit Interviewee Podcast for Black Educators. Thank you all for coming and listening to us. We hope that you listen again. Peace.

shawn-ginwright_1_12-11-2024_100722: Thank y'all so much. Great.

stacey-taylor-brandon_1_12-11-2024_080722: Thank you. Thank you so much.

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